Soft-looking video, or am I expecting too much?

This is really,really,really a good forum! I think that what we are doing here is help each others with suggestions,tips and critics! Good! If one of my firends want to buy a camera i always tell to him to go here and read pros opinions! I only have a question to Garion: with the new PAP filter do you have the same "jello" on the clouds in your poster or not? We are thinking to buy another camera....but i want to know directly from a 371's user if that pixel shifting still happens with the new firmware or not.
Thank you!
Bests,
Roberto
 
Hi Roberto, the new Pap filter has made a big differance to me. It has had a minimal effect on sensitivy but a major reduction in the shifting pattern effect in the image.

I always used to see the effect when doing macro shots on plant leaves, now i dont. Its not 100% gone but i do not notice it so im sure the public wouldnt either.

With regards skew(jello), i always shoot 1080 25p and it isnt an issue for me. Barry Green said it exhibited similar (and sometimes better) skew to the Sony Ex1, a lot of broadcaster's here in UK happily use EX1's for doc type shows so im sure skew isnt an issue.

Im not a panasonic fanboy, i always try to buy the best i can afford at the time. I think for the money the 3xx series are great, they just need to be setup properly and used with respect :)

cheers Andy
 
Garion said:
I think for the money the 3xx series are great, they just need to be setup properly and used with respect :)
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Yeah, I found this out the hard way. I guess that when one user said that if you can learn to use a 370, you can learn any camera, he wasn't kidding. It was simply my mistake taking a running jump into pro video without any previous experience....
When I started doing photography 2 years ago, it took me less than a month to learn everything about cameras inside and out, and today I know all the workflows from capture to print, but I guess that's just the typical Russian's way of doing things, jumping in head first and learning to swim, if you don't drown first...
 
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Thank you Andy! So the strong noise filter makes that "jello" happening... yes Kolor, i've said that if you learn to use the 301/371 you will learn to use any camera when i was talking with roomy for the problems with the backfocus in his thread, and yes i was not kidding!!! I have had the possibility to work with an EX-1 camera and my 301 and the result was that the client was happy with the EX-1 shoot for details and luminosity, but prefers the 301 clips for the look and the color gamma. I've edited a little spot made with a 301, an EX-1 and a 5D at 1080p, and i've had a lot of problem with the EX footages to match the 5D image. But the cinelike matrix of the 301 makes the footage really close to the 5D. The EX are "ready to go" cameras but the 3xx performs better look and better colours when you set the scene file properly according to me.

Bests, and good work to everyone!
Roberto
 
I came to this forum to research the hpx370 as I am in the market for a camera, what I have seen so far on the web, most have a soft and out of focus look (this seems to be the case with some other manufacturers too, it must be a codec issue and more so with certain models like the hpx370). What attracted me to this camera is the price range, AVCIntra100 and the should mount/size. I am debating between the hpx170 and the hpx370. Mybe I should hold off for a newer release within my price range for a shoulder mount. I also thought about the sony HXR-NX5U, and canon. Some uses would be on the run and others on tripod, need it also for some chromakey and live streaming. Any suggestions and advise.
 
What is your price range, Ken? There's a big price difference between the HPX170 and the HPX370, once you add the batteries, tripod and such. The 170 will cost about $3,800, but that includes a battery and 16GB P2 card. The 370 will run about $7,000 (after the rebate) but that does not include a P2 card or batteries. Figure over $1,000 for P2 cards and over $1,000 for batteries, plus a more robust tripod to handle the greater weight, and it becomes quite a bit more.
If you need chromakeying, a 4:2:2 camera is best for that. The 170 and 370 both have this. I think the 370 will shoot a lot better video than the 170, as it has AVC-intra 100, a better lens and full raster 1920x1080 chips.
The NX5 is AVCHD and 4:2:0, if I'm not mistaken. The Canon XF300/305 are 4:2:2, but also have full raster 1920x1080 chips and a 50mbps codec.
For live streaming, do you need HD/DSI? All of these cameras have that feature (the XF305 does). The XF305 and HPX370 will be the best of these cameras, but also the most expensive.

If you keep holding out for the "next, best camera," you might be holding out forever. Get a camera now that you can make money on. If it makes you a profit, it's a good camera.
 
What attracted me to this camera is the price range, AVCIntra100 and the should mount/size
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Ditto. A soft look isn't exactly bad though, and quite frankly I've now found myself applying a soft-focus filter rather often, but it's not a codec issue on the 370 since AVCIntra is actually rather resilient.
Quite frankly, the low-end ENG market is a bit of a mess right now... JVC's are cheap, but 720p native and 4:2:0 35mbps long-gop, Sony pmw-320/350 cams are good, but pricey and still only 35mbps long-gop, and Panasonic's aren't the best, but inexpensive and have reliable codecs. I was also looking at Canon's XF 305, but I really didn't want a half-size camera. In the end I thought pleasing colour and a codec that won't mush around water was more important.
 
Its kind of funny, I remember when I bought my Sony DXC D30 / DSR1 in 1997 which was way to sharp and differently a video look . I used Pro mist filters to soften the image for more of a film look. Now I have my film look I want it sharper.

Everyone just go out and shoot , recoup your investment and be ready to sell your current camera for the new one coming out in 6-8 months.
 
I know, it is funny, and I was thinking that, but you know... this is a gear forum, and it's here for people to try and figure out how to use their gear, and then complain about how awful it is. :tongue:

I'm at least lucky by way of actually having a camcorder of this class in Moscow. Outside of TV, news, and the entertainment industries, there are few people who get to use, let alone own such devices, no small part due to the fact that electronics here cost 25%+ over what you get in the US and that almost no one sells them. I bought back 4 round-trip plane tickets getting the 370 overseas.
 
ill you share your settings please?






Lez said:
Various shoots done with the HPX302... I've found the camera can get good results but I found it a bit tricky to set up... now I just leave it at the settings I've chosen... I tend to only shoot 720p on this camera.. I still think 1080p is a big call for 1/3" chips....

Cheers

FLORIADE 2009
http://vimeo.com/6605095

Around Town
http://vimeo.com/6394998

Kangaroos 2
http://vimeo.com/6394506

Snow & Ice
http://vimeo.com/7012772

Early Morning
http://vimeo.com/6937245
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"If you keep holding out for the "next, best camera," you might be holding out forever. Get a camera now that you can make money on. If it makes you a profit, it's a good camera"

That statment is a fact, being used to full size camcorders I am leaning towards the HPX370 and the rebate helps. But I might decide to buy a less expensive camera and rent the hpx370 for better paying jobs. Tomorrow I am going to a local dealer and will be checking the following cameras.

1. HMC80: I wached some video on youtube and very impressed with the image quality, and has excellent reviews on B and H's website. I like that it is shoulder mount for gun and run and has every major output with the exception of SDI. for only $2400 AVCHD SDHC
2.HPX170 Expensive P2 but you get 4:2:2
3HPX370 I already have a nice bogen tripod and happen to have the camera plate, but you are right need to spend about 9.2K after rebate to get couple P2 cards and batteries.
4. Sony NX5 Has SDI out
 
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Kolor... Instead of soft we should say blury/out of focus image. But to be fair it seems this is an issue with other HD camcorders, however the hpx370 seems to have a little more of it.
 
Lez did you shoot all those clips in 720p, also did you keep the same setting or was it changed at each location? I was amazed at the quality for the Floriade clip, very sharp and in focus. The other clips though make it look like it was shot with another camera as they look again soft and out of focus with some blure. Also the jitter as you pan with the 300 is very anoying.
 
The 370 is actually cheaper than is listed on the B&H website . Maybe they just didn't update the information or something but my check lists the camera at $8995...
 
Ken1212 said:
Kolor... Instead of soft we should say blury/out of focus image. But to be fair it seems this is an issue with other HD camcorders, however the hpx370 seems to have a little more of it.
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Blurry is what you get when the camera or subject moves, causing a loss of detail due to motion.
Out of focus is when the focus isn't precisely set on the subject, making it appear soft.
What I meant really was "Soft" because there is no motion, focus is spot-on and an aperture below f/4, but it still doesn't render fine detail.

I was initially worried by this but actually using the camera, but it doesn't seem as important now, since there are other variables that impact the final image a lot more than detail. Using the camera (any camera, really) run & gun means fine detail goes out the window with any shutter speed below 1/120th, and using it in low light makes noise a bigger concern. Speaking of noise, anyone have experience with the Neat Video plugin?
 
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Ken1212 said:
The other clips though make it look like it was shot with another camera as they look again soft and out of focus with some blure.
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The problem with looking at online clips is this...

1) Lez was shooting 720p, if you watch his clips on your computer monitor and click fullscreen it will be enlarged to whatever your computer screen rez is (it will go soft).
(LCD screens are only sharp when displaying footage at their native rez,watching 720p on my 1080 PC screen doesnt look good lol)

2) the online clips are totally dependant on how the clips were exported from the NLE and the type of online account you have.
( i have the basic vimeo account and its quality isnt as good as the paid for version)

This is what i always do, i shoot 1080 25p and convert to 720 in my NLE and export to vimeo or youtube with the highest quality/bit rate i can..

Also dont forget if you are shooting progressive alway use 180 degree shutter, it helps a lot with motion blur :)

I was reading the BBC evaluation of the 371 again today and they say catagorically, unless you need 720 for slomo/variable frame rates, shoot 1080 and down rez in post.
The 3xx cameras lose rez in 720 as the cameras cannot down convert as well as an NLE (the article says all cameras have this problem).

One little trick you can do to get a more cinematic look (and better compression) is to crop to 2.35. looks great in vimeo (as Mr Bloom's work can testify)
 
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Kolor, I've used the Neat Video plug-in on some footage that I shot without sufficient light. It does a very good job if you really take the time to experiment with the settings for noise profile and filter. Having an area of one flat color that's at least 128x128 px gives the best noise profile, though you can get by with a smaller sample area.
 
I see... I've used Neat Image before, so I'm guessing Neat Video is a similar deal, which sounds nice since Neat Image is one of the better NR filters.

Also, I tested the Zylight today to see how it would light a pitch-black room. +3db, lens wide open, 25p. Don't mind the messy room, but here's some pics:

Lights off.

Shutter off, PAP filter, light min power.
Shutter off, PAP filter, light max power.

180 shutter, light min power.
180 shutter, light max power.

It seems the PAP filter does a really good job of removing noise, but PAP + no shutter = blur city, but if it's a relatively still scene I guess it's good.
 
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