Soft-looking video, or am I expecting too much?

Kolor-Pikker

Kolor-Pikker

Well-known member
So I've recently started working with an HPX 370, and noticed that certain parts of recorded footage seemed soft, or mushy even. At first I thought I was seeing things, so I set up a comparison with the 370 side by side with a 5D2 + prime lens, and recorded various clips at 1080p25 @ 1/50th shutter on both cameras.

Looking at the footage on my 27" iMac, the 370's image quality was better than the 5D2 in most respects, except for flat low-detail areas like wallpaper and people's faces, and oddly enough in hair, which seems to merge into a solid mass rather than rendering individual hairs.
The 5D2 seemed to hold detail better in such places, even while panning, whereas the 370 footage looked more blurry and video-like, which really baffles me considering the superior codec.

This is definitely not a back-focus problem, I'm talking about areas that are in perfect focus looking soft, and yes, my aperture is always kept below f/4.

The settings that I'm using are close to the BBC settings that some people on this forum recommend using, which looks like this:

1080p25
180deg shutter
Detail: -3
Detail coring: -1
Chroma: -4
Master ped: -10
A.Iris: -3
DRS: 3
Gamma: Cinelike D
Knee: High
Matrix Cine-like
Skin Tone DTL: off
V Detail Freq: Thin
...Any settings I didn't mention are set to 0

I'll try to upload some clips or screenshots later, if I have the time.
 
Get rid of the DRS unless you are in a very high contrast shot and it has something to do. On any other shot it will just cause issues. Why is your Auto iris set to -3? Which lens do you have on it? You might consider either dumping the Detail Coring setting or increasing the detail, but you have two settings that are sort of working against each other. And -10 on the Master Pedestal seems aggressive, but then I am not looking at your picture and I am not in front of an HPX370 right now. However it seems like a real black crushing number to me. See you are using the DRS to bring out shadow detail that you have crushed with the pedestal, and the rest of the picture is being affected with the +3 DRS. Rethink your settings.

Best,

Jan
 
Thanks for the reply. I was using DRS because I was shooting out of an open window at one time, so the contrast was really up there. Auto iris I'm not too sure about, since I don't use that feature much anyway. Also, am I right in assuming that "Detail Level" and "Coring" are equivalent to the amount of sharpening and noise-reduction being applied to the image respectively?
 
Kolor-Pikker said:
Thanks for the reply. I was using DRS because I was shooting out of an open window at one time, so the contrast was really up there. Auto iris I'm not too sure about, since I don't use that feature much anyway. Also, am I right in assuming that "Detail Level" and "Coring" are equivalent to the amount of sharpening and noise-reduction being applied to the image respectively?
Click to expand...

Hallo Kolor! I have a 301 not a 371 but i don't think that DRS works in 1080p. In the 301 you have to use the auto knee function when shooting at 1080p. The datail level is used to control the details in the footage and the coring basically preserve the image from noise. If you use a low coring value, details will increase and the noise too,on the contrary if you use high values the noise is reduced and the details too. I've to say that i've first bought a 371 but i don't like the softness of the picture compared with a 301. So i decide to change it with a 301. But i know that Panasonic have made for the 371 another type of noise suppression. I belive that the picture maybe is less soft. You can find the PAP filter in a firmware update if you don't have it yet. Another thing you can try is to use the ND filters instead of closing the iris. I don't know if you are shooting in sunlight but if this is your situation you have to try keeping the lens iris in a range between completely open and 4 or at max 5,6 and use the ND filters to set the exposure or maybe the shutter speed (1/250 produced great detailed pictures in sunlight).
Hope it helps!
Bests,
Roberto
Roberto
 
The PAP filter, I'll have to try turning it off... I read about it being like an inter-frame noise-reduction, right? Perhaps the technology isn't quite there yet to reliably blend frames. And I'm already aware of the iris problem, I also have a polarizer in case of emergencies, which I learned is invaluable from photography experience.
Anyways, I now have Detail at -2, Coring at 0, and master ped back at 0... it does seem to have some sort of effect on the blacks, but the precise function of this setting eludes me. On a camera where a few clicks off a setting can have such large effects, they sure aren't well documented...
And sorry for all the questions, I've only had the camera since mid-November, and didn't take any classes; a learn-on-the-job thing. long story.
 
Ive got a 371 and i normally shoot using Panasonics vivid scene file but i have my detail set to 0 & coring to 0, everything comes out nice and sharp. I have used the Cine like gammas but if i use 0
on those then the picture seems slightly softer, im sure i remember a post somewhere where Barry Green mentioned that the detail settings had differant values depending on the gamma you were using?

I have the new firmware and am using the new pap filter, even with detail and coring at 0 i do not see noise at -3db or 0db gain. Using vivid scene file going to +2 detail brings in slight halo so i keep it at 0.
Maybe try bumping up detail a little but i definately bring coring to zero it just isnt needed tbh.

cheers Andy
 
Ok guys, I'm back at the workplace, tried out the setting suggestions, and I'm getting much better results this time around, even pushing an under-exposed clip looks better than a previously well-exposed clip, and no noise!
Thanks for the help, I think I'm getting the hang of this.
 
Im wondering if the camera is just not as sharp as I expected. Maybe it is operating within the specs of the camera and just can't be any sharper unless I boost the detail. When I look at a camera like the XF300 by canon or the EX1 with no detail enhancement, I have never seen my footage as sharp as theirs.

http://www.vimeo.com/16552104
 
Can't really judge true quality from a compressed internet video, though.
So far I seem to have mitigated the problem, but I also haven't had the chance to take the camera outdoors and in good light, where I assume it would shine - so I can't truly say of it's sharpness potential. Whatever the case, absolute sharpness isn't what drew me to the HPX, but the look it produces...

I might try uploading something tomorrow. Anyone know of good FCP7 export settings for youtube?
 
I'm sorry Jan but i have to disagree with you. In all my posts i have said that the 301 is a good camera for its price, and i still remain with this opinion, but it's absolutely not detailed as the Ex cameras in the 0 position. You have to play with settings a lot to reach that detailed images. And i assure this to you because i work with x4 301 and they all looks the same. I have bought a 371 and give it back to panasonic after few tests because the image was terrible soft. The worst flaw of this camera is the pixel movement in the picture. I NEVER SEEN THIS ISSUE ON OTHER CAMERAS! Even with the 1/3 cmos sensor. Panasonic from his side didn't get rid of this flaw and the 371 have this bad issue in all of his settings. The 301 reveal this flaw only with 1080p footages (DVCPRO or AVC Intra), The result is a sort vaseline look if you shoot with pedestal at 0. You have to go down at least -10 to reach detailed black and contrasted pictures, or do it in post. If you shoot not on a tripod like me you have to consider that maybe in the shoot you will have some parts of the image that moves in a completely diffrent way of the picture. This is a common issue when you look at a LCD monitor and activate the noise suppression. In other words the noise suppression in this cameras gives this bad issue. And the 371 has a more strong noise filter that amplify this effect. For that reason panasonic make a firmware update to the camera. The noise on movement is really really odd. I'll continue to use the 301 because i really like the codec and the way you can manipulate it in post without loosing definition, but I REALLY WILL BE HAPPY IF PANASONIC SAID THAT THE PIXEL MOVEMENT IN THE PICTURE IS A REAL FLAW ON THIS CAMERA, AND MAKE IMPROVEMENT TO REDUCE IT OR COMPLETELY REMOVE IT. This issue is the real cause of soft pictures, ghosting even with a bright sunny day and not detailed pictures. The pixels moves in the frame and cause the soft looking image.
Bests,
Roberto
 
Sorry but i have to say something else... if you look at my posts on june, when i bought the 371, you can find detailed informations about this flaw. You can't find the videos because i've deleted them but you can look at Steven Phillips posts on noise on movement, what Berry Green said about this issue and what Garion said about the poster in his room. If you look at the Videomakers forum ( italian forum's ) you can find a lot of people that give back the camera because they don't understand why a shoulder camera will be used on a tripod for 1080p recordings. What Panosonic's said to me is this : the camera is this! They don't give any response or any advice of this problem because they knows that this problem is a big limitations to the recording workflow. I've learned to know this bad thing on my own, but for the work that i do the AVCIntra codec is the best solution. What roomy saw in the hairs of the subjects on front of the green screen is the flaw that i'm talking about. Blurry pixels moved on their own and cause the soft picture. Ok roomy, as i said in one of my posts, has a problem with the backfocus. But the soft details in the hair is caused by this odd flaw of the camera. As a response to panasonic i've bought other two 301... am i mad? For most people yes! But i hope that panasonic will try to fix this issue ( IS ONLY A CIRCUITRY PROBLEM!!!! ), maybe they can insert an activation for the noise filter to prevent this bug. I'm not warry about grain... a fast blur of 0,5 will eliminiate all the noise, but the strange moving in the picture and the extremly blur pixels in movement is a thing that they have to consider. Well... the 301 is an old camera and they look to the future... BUT THEY HAVE TO LISTEN TO PEOPLE THAT USE THEIR PRODUCTS AND SPEND A LOT OF MONEY. For me the "you get what you paid" for the 301/371 is absolutely not enough. I have spent money for a PROFESSIONAL camera with a lot of problems ( grain,skew,banding ) but they are all well documented. But the noise on movement and the floating part of the image is like a mysterious secret. You see this only when you have the camera in your hands.
So now back to work!
Bests,
Roberto
 
Roberto you are my savior. I know I am not crazy. What I was seeing is lack of detail in the hair for instance. Faces seemed smudged. This did not show up on a static chart, which made me think it was due to movement of the actors, then I thought it was an overly aggressive noise reduction. Then I said it was backfocus. Maybe a combination, but nothing like the EX1 which I also have in the studio at times.

All this was being seen at 1080, and others said shoot 720. But damit I bought a 1080 camera.

In your use of the camera what advice can you give me to get the image as close to an EX1 as possible in sharpness. Also what does pedestal have to do with detail?
 
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I thought my problems were fixed, but I'm experiencing the same issues.... How can I make this camera usable? It could be posted on Ebay in a few days!
 
I like 4:2:2. I've gotten used to the form factor, the ease of use flipping through clips with the side panel, and how it makes me look like a "big boy" shooter. Those are reasons I really want this to work out. But when I see $4500 cameras looking so much better then it makes me wanna puke. I don't even have 80 hours on this unit and I would let it go right now for half of what I paid just to run out and buy another brand.

Whatever you can help with Roberto will be a true blessing as I am kinda rooting for this thing to work. No disrespect to Panasonic products, but he said it right. When I paid almot 10 grand to upgrade to the big leagues, just to feel like I went backwards because of all the problems, I wanna smack someone, namely myself I think. lol.
 
Hallo roomy! You're not crazy! If you use the pedestal you have black crushed down, so you loose details in the darkest part of the image. But fortunately they are details that you can loose. So brown hairs will became a little darker. It depends on how much you go down with the settings. I usually shot with pedestal at -50 or -100. I shot with pedestal at -10 if i have to shot nature on a tripod. If you look at the 301's scene files from panasonic you can notice that pedestal is almost in every scene file below 0. Then i set details to -2 to avoid grain problems. You can set it to 0 or go up but you will have noise in grey and middle black areas. The coring is another setting that may helps you. I set mine to +4 but if i want more details i set it to 0 and delete grain in post with my famous fast blur at 0,5! For the skin you can try to set the skin tone detail on or off and see the differences.If you want to set the pedestal at 0 you can apply in post one of my favorite effect for the AVCIntra codec: the levels effect. Use the level effect and not brightness and contrast to set properly the black and white gamma. Brightness and contrast will reduce the gamma in a bad way. Levels will crush black but not reduce the gamma.Take a look at the panasonic's scene files to get confident with settings. I do a lot of videoclip and commercial so i have understand how lights works on the camera and how i have to set the scene files. But i'm still learning day by day! With the 301/371 you have to manipulate settings and try to reduce the flaws as much as you can. Another thing is the shutter and gain. I hate the 0db value but if you try to use it you will notice that the moving pixels are reduced. But remember that you will have the vaseline look if you don't underexpose ( not with iris but with ND ) the picture. Shutter speed will increase or decrese some flaws. I like the 1/1000 time, and i have to consider that i will have a lot of ghosting ( fast objects will have a lot of ghosting ), but i use it when i shoot not on a tripod and with fast camera movement. So you basically can see it in frame pause but not in the moving frames. Use 1/50 to reduce flaws. Remember that for the 301 problems comes out only at 1080p. The other modes are almost perfect. You can record at 1080i and then convert footage with MagicBullet Frames. But is a time consuming procedure that will stress your cpu a lot! In my little 371 experience i have noticed that the problems are everywhere! But on this forum you can find a lot of people that uses the 371 in a great way! This is what i know about this camera! You can find in this forum more experts than me that can suggest to you other tricks. So the real question is this : do you prefer a better codec ? Use the 301... do you need details and no flaws in picture but an extremly loosy codec? Use the Ex. But i repeat again my though: it's a bit sad that from Panasonic none said this to consumers. For me the 371 was the worst investment of my life, i've bought a product that on chart will be the best camera in that price range, but what i get was a flaw product and no support at all from Panasonic. But hey! as i said before i have x4 301 to work with... I hope that it helps and that you can find the right way to work with your camera.

Bests,
Roberto
 
bought a product that on chart will be the best camera in that price range, but what i get was a flaw product and no support at all from Panasonic
Click to expand...

Sums up my thought. I can live with having to massage it to get what I want and will experiment with the pedestal more as well as some of the post work. There is some relief in knowing I was not imagining things. Thanks alot.
 
What the hell guys? why all this negativity in my thread? If you see the video quality as so awful, why not post up some screenshots showcasing the problem, at least then I'd know what people consider "unacceptable". And if the codec is all that's keeping you, why not just get a Sony + NanoFlash?

Anyway, I've shot a short clip of a co-worker, exported the video and took some frames in VLC, this was 1080p25 with a 1/50th shutter, so there was a bit of blur when he was moving. I used a bit of soft-focus, so the image isn't as sharp as it was out of the camera. Either way, I would've liked the skin to have more detail in it, though hair looks good enough for now. It does look much better in motion though.

mid-zoom: vlcsnap-2011-01-22-16h13m28s211.jpg
close-up 1: vlcsnap-2011-01-22-16h14m01s30.jpg
close-up 2: vlcsnap-2011-01-22-16h14m20s205.jpg

An interesting thing I've noticed is that at maximum zoom (z99) the sharpness of the image is much higher than at other zoom levels, especially when zoomed half-way (z50)... racking focus and using focus assist never shows the subject getting sharper either, but I'm guessing this is because of the pack-in lens. Speaking of which, has anyone tried using lenses on this camera that don't have "Fujinon" written across the side? I'm starting to think that Fujinon should be renamed to "Fringinon" :cheesy:
 
Hallo Kolor! I'm not negative, but i'm realistic! You have to consider that my opinion is passionate because as i said i've a lot of 301 in my stock and i think that people should know this flaws so they can consider to buy another camera. Roomy has this problem and i explain to him that the problem that he has are problem of the camera. Is a fact that three of the biggest Italian's store that i contact almost everyday for rent something have sell only three or four 371 in this year. That's because people reads opinions and tests the camera not on the tripod! To use the 301 or the 371 you must learn the scene files and how they works. It's the reality. I'm not a fan of the sharp image, so i repeat i've bought the 301 because i like the cinematic look that this camera produce and his extremely versatile codec. If you see in the forums i've upload my last videoclip and soon i will post another one because i think that this forum is the best place to learn and share informations with other peoples that have my same passion. Here there are a lot of professional users and i really like to know what they think about my work! But here is the right place to help other users too! I have not test yet another lens on the camera, but i'm really consider to use a PS TECHNIK with a better lens to see differences and how this influence the luminosity of the camera. The 301 is a bit darker respect of the 371. In the end i've to say that i'm happy with my cameras, but i hope that panny will support users more and make the same PAP filter for the 301, just to see if there are improvements!

Bests,
Roberto
 
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