So there's no AF100 Successor - Now what?

FS5 looks pretty neat but even rigging up A7SII can be very versatile and not so expensive.
 
Now where Panasonic had announced the new UX series as sucessor to the AF series there is a new hope for an AG-UX100 ( or 120/150/200.. ;-) ) Maybe as big brother to the GH5. Lets wait a few month... :-(
 
Mike Harvey said:
One other thing, 2-3 years ago Panasonic Pro said they were going to focus on just broadcast-ish type products and step away from cinema-ish stuff. With the exception of the Varicam 35, their entire product lineup reflects that. Even then, the Varicam S35 shares the same modular back end with the 2/3" Varicam, which is very much aimed at extreme high-end broadcast.

The DVX200 fits into that plan better than a proper AF100 successor. I still believe there should be an "HVX300" with P2 and a removable lens a la the EX3 for those folks who need 10bit 4:2:2 and more flexibility in lens options. But 10bit 4:2:2 arguments aside, I think Panasonic believes the DVX200 fills a market niche that aligns with their business focus far better than trying to compete with Sony, Canon, BMD, and Red with a m4/3 cinema style camera.
Click to expand...

New user - long post but this is why I joined DVXUSER. So....

I heard the same thing regarding the high end and their varicam systems. TBH I believe Panasonic is late to an already over saturated market. Red, Arri, Sony, and even Panavision now. There are only so many ultra high end cinema cameras that are going to be used and rented at any given time. Picking the right gear for the right project leaves a lot of room in the sub 10k dollar camera market that none of the competition seems to be showing much interest in. Perhaps they all know something we don't and maybe everyone will just film on their Iphones (joking). At any rate, I can't help but feel their entry into this market is going to leave them coming up short. There is a lot of dedication to the Red and Arri systems already and Panasonic is very late to that game.

The new fixed lens 4K releases seem aimed at the ENG news market. One man band backpack journalists could get a lot of run and gun use out of those cameras. IMO they are not the territory of interchangable lens cinema cameras. Essentially what I see in the camera market is three tiers - high end cinema, journalism, and consumer. There hasn't been much innovation in the prosumer or low budget realm of cameras in quite some time. In fact the only real new contenders for that niche are the GH4, Ursa, and BMPCC. All good cameras in their own right, but hardly anything groundbreaking.

Now prices are dropping in used REDs, and there are systems out there like the CION which are reasonably priced. That said, when all the proprietary gear and media is purchased to make those items viable for the average user the buyer is back in the high end dollars. Take into account the glass involved in the higher end systems too, where some of them are PL mount only or with $900 adapters. The M 4/3 might not be winning Academy Awards, but it has been very friendly to any lens system in creation and with Veydra or SLRmagic can make some beautiful images. Also, there are many markets where high end rental houses don't exist for these high end systems and even if you had them shipped you do not have the experienced crews or manpower to use them.

Meanwhile, Panasonic who had a niche market fairly cornered with the AF100 and GH line seems to have lost their way again and wondered into the high end. Could they offer an upgrade of the AF100 sensor married with the GH4? I'm not an engineer and have no idea. If they did, I'd bet a lot of Af100 users would ship their cameras to Panasonic and pay gladly for the upgrade. Will they do it, or had the thought crossed their minds? Highly doubtful.
 
Somewhere back there ^ I said that I'd bought JVC LS300 in order to use my accumulated MFT and MFT adapted lenses. That $3000 purchase was intended as a transitional camera until something better came along - and I knew it would pay for itself quickly on my client funded documentaries and TV spots (it did, over 4 times its cost in less than a year in the equipment category of my budgets).

Well, nothing better has come along. I do have 2 Pocket Cameras (IRs, NDs and in-camera audio are hassles though) - and considered the FS5 since I have EF lenses too (from my year with the C100), mostly because it's 10bit and light... But I don't care much for the picture or its use.

So, I just bought another LS300 instead. In my case at least, it is the true successor to the AF100.
 
Mac - how do you deal with the lack of waveforms when setting exposure on the LS300? Im looking to purchase soon and was informed by another user that its also missing the dual zebra settings that the AF101 offered, curious how users work with the (seeming) limitations of the cam
 
I own the LS300 also. Dual zebra settings would be nice, but using the zebra and histogram, I haven't had a problem. I'm saving my pennies to purchase a camera mounted recorder/monitor such as the Odyssey that has built-in waveform and vectorscope.

I have a GH4 also, and the two cameras match up pretty well with some minor tweaking.

Being a Sony and Panasonic owner for many years, I considered the FS5 at twice the price, and the DVX200 (very nice camera, but the fixed lens is too limiting for my purposes) at $1,200 more. For the price, the LS300 is well worth it. It's not perfect, but show me a camera under 10K that is!
 
Last edited:
TubEfingers said:
Mac - how do you deal with the lack of waveforms when setting exposure on the LS300? Im looking to purchase soon and was informed by another user that its also missing the dual zebra settings that the AF101 offered, curious how users work with the (seeming) limitations of the cam
Click to expand...

The LS300 does have a histogram, unfortunately it doesn't output to a monitor. But I don't use the viewfinder or the LCD much anyway, mainly for menus etc. I have a Gratical X mounted off the handle (as I did with the AF100, although it was with a Z-Finder), and handhold with the camera on my shoulder.

I ordered the Gratical with histogram, waveform and vectors, which are excellent, so I use those and it works great. The Gratical is nice because that stuff appears in the black letterbox outside the frame. It's a fantastic, albeit expensive, tool because it goes from camera to camera, so I'm always using a viewfinder that I'm used to.

I do still have the Z-Finder (two actually) and use them mostly on the Pocket Cameras because they're lighter - they only have zebras, but they're good zebras - the log on the Pockets is way more radical than J-Log though, so it does take some getting used to. The Zs would work well on the LS300 because it's log is so subtle.
 
I recently sold my two AF102 cameras and have just been allocated a RED Raven after a years wait!
The AF102 served me well and I would have certainly upgraded to a AF200 if Panasonic had maintained this line.
Whenever I spoke to a Panasonic Rep they were keen to sell the values of the GH4, but too me it was a large step backward from a functional point of view.
Yes the image would be far superior but the form factor did not interest me.
What I like about RED is they have a good range from reasonable price - the Raven was twice what I paid for a AF102, but easily arguable has twice the features with 4.5 K up to 120 fps. As I grow as a cinematographer there are plenty of other professional options to move up to. I believe for a Panasonic customer to jump from the GH4 or GH5 to the new Varicam is too big a financial and practical (maybe needing to get new lenses) a leap for Panasonic to maintain a loyal customer base.
I wish Panasonic well as I really did like their AF100 series. cheers
 
DLD said:
I mentioned on another thread that Red Raven is basically what the AF200 would/could/should have been.
Click to expand...
The Raven is $7,000 for just the brain. That's three and a half times as expensive as an AF100A was two years ago. Add the DSMC2 Base Package and you're looking at about $12,500 for a workable lensless Raven package. How is that in any way comparable with the market segment the AF100 was in?

That's more VariCam LT territory, not AF100/AF200 territory, isn't it?
 
Maybe Panasonic will surprise us at this years NAB and at least talk about a replacement for the AF100, all they would really need to do is put the guts of a GH5 in a Pro camera body designed for interchangeable lenses………….it’s a no brainer and would sell like hot cakes at 3K.
 
Hi Barry
Yes you are right regarding current pricing.
I paid $10,000 USD for the RED Raven I/O package which was the introductory package offered by RED in 2015 and while I paid $5000 in Australia for the AF102 I'm sure it would have been cheaper in the US.
So maybe the AF102 is one third of the price of a Raven?
I still feel Panasonic does not listen to its customer base as well as RED does.
 
Barry_Green said:
The Raven is $7,000 for just the brain. That's three and a half times as expensive as an AF100A was two years ago. Add the DSMC2 Base Package and you're looking at about $12,500 for a workable lensless Raven package. How is that in any way comparable with the market segment the AF100 was in?

That's more VariCam LT territory, not AF100/AF200 territory, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Red's margins, costs of manufacturing and the R&D have to be higher - at least, percentage wise - than of a major Japan based conglomerate. As a comparison for pricing, I'd look at Sony FS-5, which can shoot Raw into a Q7+ for about $8,000 combined. An MFT derived camera would/should retail for even less.

If one drops the Raw capability completely, GH-5 can already shoot 10-bit V-log internal for $2,100. Let's say it'd run another $1,500 for an AF-100 style body.

To bring up another example, JVC LS 300 is retailing for $2,600 already.

Interpolating between the above, it looks like a $5,000-6,000'ish MFT 4K Raw package would be possible under the current market rates. We'll see what the NAB brings.
 
Well, Blackmagic has managed to release a Ursa Mini Pro, with external controls like the AF100, built in filters and interchangeable mounts, covering EF, PL and B4, with Nikon F on the way, for under $6K! Except for the fact it is a 4.6K S35 sensor, it is the camera the AF200 could have been, if it were a MFT mount camera with a smaller sensor.
Cheers
 
Denny16 said:
Well, Blackmagic has managed to release a Ursa Mini Pro, with external controls like the AF100, built in filters and interchangeable mounts, covering EF, PL and B4, with Nikon F on the way, for under $6K! Except for the fact it is a 4.6K S35 sensor, it is the camera the AF200 could have been, if it were a MFT mount camera with a smaller sensor.
Cheers
Click to expand...

By the time you add a viewfinder and battery, the Ursa Mini Pro gets up there in price.
Like a lot of others on this site I waited for Panasonic to follow up on the AF100.
Well, as we all know, they didn't.
I bought the GH4, but could never get into the DLSR form factor. Eventually, I ended up buying a Sony FS5.
A nice little camera, and in my opinion, probably the closest you're gonna a get to the AF100.
I will say say this; though it has better image quality, I still miss a lot of the Panny's features.
Panasonic dropped the ball. What a shame.
T
.
 
Last edited:
Yes, the Ursa Mini Pro costs more, especially if you add on the battery plate, shoulder mount/handle kit, and EVF.
I also wish Panasonic had come up with a AF200 with true 10-bit recording and output, even at $6K.

If you add an external ProRes video recorder, the AF100A can still do a good job with controlled lighting. The Sony FS5 is nice too, but it is more toward broadcast in terms of color saturation.
Cheers
 
Denny16 said:
Well, Blackmagic has managed to release a Ursa Mini Pro, with external controls like the AF100, built in filters and interchangeable mounts, covering EF, PL and B4, with Nikon F on the way, for under $6K! Except for the fact it is a 4.6K S35 sensor, it is the camera the AF200 could have been, if it were a MFT mount camera with a smaller sensor.
Cheers
Click to expand...

This is the thing that's been frustrating me about Panasonic for about 6 years now, they've had the technology to produce something very much like the Ursa Mini Pro, at a similar price point since before BMD was even making cameras - yet, they haven't (for some reason) seen the value in fulfilling their vision of producing relatively inexpensive cinema cameras for the masses. Anyone remember when Panasonic was positioning the AF100 as a digital replacement for S16 film? What happened to THAT company? I've slowly moved on to BMD's offerings as they've proven a much stronger interest and commitment in making the kind of cameras I want, but it's still baffling to me that Panasonic doesn't dominate the $5,000.00 (ish) compact cinema camera space... it was theirs to lose.

Shawn
 
ShawnMi said:
This is the thing that's been frustrating me about Panasonic for about 6 years now, they've had the technology to produce something very much like the Ursa Mini Pro, at a similar price point since before BMD was even making cameras - yet, they haven't (for some reason) seen the value in fulfilling their vision of producing relatively inexpensive cinema cameras for the masses. Anyone remember when Panasonic was positioning the AF100 as a digital replacement for S16 film? What happened to THAT company? I've slowly moved on to BMD's offerings as they've proven a much stronger interest and commitment in making the kind of cameras I want, but it's still baffling to me that Panasonic doesn't dominate the $5,000.00 (ish) compact cinema camera space... it was theirs to lose.
Click to expand...

Because they wanted to focus on the DSLR craze and pump out new GH# cameras. Meh. Plus, the AF100 never met the bottom-line expectations the suits were hoping for.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top