So, should we wait for the huge price drop?

"street price" and there's required accessories and all sorts of things. But these are the manufacturer's MSRP's for the base camera configuration.
Click to expand...

Thanks Barry and let me say that I too have quickly become another of your fans on this site. Your generosity of character and sharing of your detailed knowledge is highly commendable! I'm leaning heavily towards the HVX200 because colour is where I paint...it and the light are the moods (and other factors too of course), and correct me if wrong but what I've picked up at this site in my research is that that the codec that Panavision has choosen gives superior colour than HDV codec. Also what do you consider the required accessories are for the HVX200 if my plan is to start off with small projects and progress toward longer more complex, more expensive, and more stressful ones? What should I budget for the "required accessories"? Possibly I might be able to answer my own question:

-tripod system
-light for camera
-matte box
-french flag
-filter kit
-additional batteries
-shotgun mic
-3 piece lighting kit
-pelican case

All of which I could probably look up myself, which is what I should probably do and save Barry the time. If I have it all covered just say "yep" Barry. But if I've over looked anything please point it out. And if you know what a ballpark figure might be for all of those let me know.

Thanks.
 
Ralph nixon, it is not a requirement, but a 35mm adaptor, and a HD monitor are 2 very nice component.

I am too looking for the items you specified. Pelican cases is on order with the camera, battery, uv filter are also there. Now tripod is a hard one, people propose some 1500$ tripod HEAD only... Shotgun mic is something I will have to look at, lav mic also interest me.

BTW, why the French flag ? Did I missed a DIY guide who used that ? ;)
 
The first and foremost accessories for the HVX200 that I would recommend are a laptop computer to offload cards to, and at least two 4GB cards. Either a laptop or a P2 Store, but I think you can get a fairly killer laptop for a lot less than a P2 Store, and it'll do a lot more for you. Even a $499 CompUSA President's Day Special would be worthwhile. Of course a better laptop provides better options. A Mac PowerBook G4, if you can swing it, would give you the ability to capture live as well as offload cards.

A decent tripod is mandatory. A mattebox & french flags & filters are fine for advanced users who feel that something they need 'em, for beginners there are better places to spend their money. A couple of batteries will get you through most shoot days (I recommend the DVXUser batteries); two additional batteries plus the one that comes with the camera would get you through most 10+ hour days. For a mic, it depends on what you're going to be shooting; I despise on-camera mics and that includes mounting a $1,000 shotgun on the camera; to me the only way to record audio is when you get the mic OFF the camera and get it over to the subject. But that may not be practical for event shooting or one-man-band shooting, so an on-camera mic may be a little helpful, but if that's what you're planning I wouldn't spend too much on the mic; an AT4073 at most, maybe an AT897 for cheap -- because if your mic is on your camera, your audio isn't going to be that good anyway. A $300 AT897 six inches away from your actor's mouth will likely deliver noticeably better audio than a $1,000 MKH416 mounted on the camera 10 feet away.

For lighting, you can never have enough, but there are certain things you'll actually use and some other things that are wishlist items. Don't plink around with worklights, those are hateful; pick up some real fresnels off ebay for ~$100 or ~$150 each including barn doors. Two 650's and a 300 or two would be enough, and I use my CaseLites more than I ever thought I would. A CaseLite 2, a 650 and a 300 or two (and DECENT STANDS) will get you through most any low-budget circumstance. Some duvetyne, gaffer's tape, a mafer or two, a couple of sheets of white foamcore and a couple of sheets of black foamcore, a couple of spring clips to clamp the foamcore to stands or something; a couple of sound blankets ("furniture pads"), a good lavaliere (like a Countryman EMW) and a decent boom mic and a pole to hold it and some quality XLR cables to connect 'em... some C-47's ("clothespins"), a couple of C-stands, lots of power cords and a couple of cube taps and a dimmer or two... blackwrap, and some gels (primarily CTO, CTB, 1/2 CTB, ND, and diffusion... plus get a sheet of really light straw or something to warm up your keylight and really add some richness to skin tones)... get a polarizer for outdoors shots. And a sheet of beadboard insulation board from Home Depot for outdoors reflecting (it's about 1" thick, silver on one side, white on the other).

Best place to spend some money is on books and training videos; learn what you're doing before you spend a lot of money on gear that you don't yet know how to use. And practice practice practice!
 
PKraft said:
I said: <<Rez is the paramount feature of HD.
At least for me.>>

What's wrong with that? If other features are of less importance
for me, why does that bother you? It is my camera, my money and
my decision. I have my reasons why I did say that.

If you don't understand what I said, stop bashing me.
Click to expand...

Sorry PKraft! - I didn't mean to bash you.... or perhaps I did but should have...

for 1 moment I just recalled the marketing strategies of the cheapest digital still-cameras: just point out an incredibly high amount of pixels and some people will buy it.... we all know how the pictures of these cameras look like...

Everybody has it's favor priority when buying a(n) (HD-) cam. Yours is its resolution and I should not say anything against it. Mine is the performance in nature, as I don't film charts.... and yet I am interested in the resolution tests and will do some by myself.... Let's say the Z1 has a better resolution even if recording the resolution-chart with HDV-cassette. You had your bargain, buying a relatively cheap HD-camera with a good resolution. I'd have my bargain, buying a camera that doesn't need any cassette anymore and will probably live very long (and noiseless) as there is no mechanical turning / abrasive part needed in it if I don't record on tape. The Z1 user just can buy a tape in millions of stores around the world to record his HD-footage.... I will have to find a good solution as the best is not that cheap and the cheapest is not that handy....

The HVX will after the coming resolution-tests probably turn out as a camera with FAR NOT the best resolution for HD. People will buy it for other reasons and I'm not a seller, but as a seller I would be very lousy if I treated people as I treated you in the last post: forgive me - I respect your preference for resolution. Perhaps you want attach the camera to a microscope or you work a lot with architectural videography (where exact lines count a lot) or macro-videography or you film views of cities from a plane/helicopter then certainly a very good resolution will be an important point. Or it's just your "taste" and I don't have the right to criticize your taste... peace :engel017:

Cici
 
The CaseLite uses 55w fluorescents, so each lamp is equiv. to about a 250-watt incandescent in a softbox. So a CaseLite 2 would be about equiv. to a 500-watt softbox. It gets some more output from its reflectors and its mirrored barn doors can double its output, so -- on a good day, with a strong tailwind and a healthy swig of Jack Daniels, you might say it approaches a 1k softbox. I wouldn't, but you might. :)

However, it draws only 110 watts of power and runs very cool.

I don't have any CaseLite 2's, I have CaseLite 4's. But I can't tell you how many times we end up running them with just one lamp, maybe two. I keep meaning to pick up a CaseLite 2 just for the lighter weight.

They're not perfect lights by any means, but they do come in awfully handy. Biggest problem with 'em is the stupid latches, they're way too flimsy, I think we've broken 'em three times already; fortunately Pat Kerby has a pop riveter and he fixes 'em for me; which reminds me, I have one that needs fixing! Gotta get it over there... :)
 
What harm can come from waiting?

What harm can come from waiting?

I always chime in on these things late. It’s interesting to note everyone's reaction to this camera after a marginal review. It is mildly amusing listening to all of the different justifications for the HVX’s performance. In fact many on this forum snubbed HDV a year ago yet all of the HDV cameras did quite well in the shoot off. Maybe there’s a lesson here? Maybe we shouldn’t put so much emphasis on such test. Plus the HVX will probably be much better in a year as well.

Unfortunately for all the people who have patiently waited and hoped this camera would rock the world it doesn’t appear that will be the case, at least for six months.

This is a very ambitious product offering, there’s so much more to using the HVX and Panasonic has put on a clinic on how NOT to launch a product. So to the point of the original thread – wait, first off you don’t have a choice, secondly I’d be very surprised if Panasonic doesn’t quickly offer a firmware upgrade to an improved codec. I’d be willing to bet that if you took the video signal prior to the codec the image is much better (like the XL1H). And the street price for the JVC has come down considerably (although it’s supposed to increase in February) and the JD100 did extremely well in the shoot out and many other reviews since its release.

The good thing is that we have real choice, the quality of all of these cameras seems to be comparable – that’s a good thing. It will probably take Panasonic and NLE developers a while to sort out post production issues for P2 and an alternative to editing with FCP in 8bits but we should have similar choices there too.

I will probably wait until August or so to see how things shake out.
 
ChuckS said:
I’d be willing to bet that if you took the video signal prior to the codec the image is much better (like the XL1H).
Click to expand...

It was my understanding that all the cameras were recorded externally and did not use their internal codec for the rez tests. I could be wrong as the info on this was confusing. :undecided
 
wabbit said:
It was my understanding that all the cameras were recorded externally and did not use their internal codec for the rez tests. I could be wrong as the info on this was confusing. :undecided
Click to expand...

yeah, that's my understanding as well rabbit and if that's the case wouldn't the hvx's superior codec potentially improve its relative picture quality versus the other cameras? it feels like the race to see who has the best image is only half complete, shouldn't we wait til the image is evaluated in the context of its actual codec?
i mean in the real world, isn't the final product the context in which images are compared?
 
ChuckS said:
It is mildly amusing listening to all of the different justifications for the HVX’s performance. In fact many on this forum snubbed HDV a year ago yet all of the HDV cameras did quite well in the shoot off. Maybe there’s a lesson here?
Click to expand...

Yes there was a lesson learned here, don't assume.
The tests were from camera heads only. The results were
not captured from their internal codec.

Therefore, there was no HDV verses DVCPROHD comparison done with the tests.
 
"Best place to spend some money is on books and training videos; learn what you're doing before you spend a lot of money on gear that you don't yet know how to use. And practice practice practice![/QUOTE]

Thanks Barry! Are there any books and videos that you recommend? It looks like I'll be ordering my HVX shortly. Just waiting for a few more members to post here once they received theirs.
 
Maybe Barry could shed some light on this but I thought the video from the HDV cameras where direct but the video from the HVX was post P2. Also, it is concievable that what comes out of the component spiggot is DVCProHD, it depends on how they engineered it.

When I spoke to engineers at Panasonic and asked Jan on this forum about the DVCProHD codec they didn't seem to think there was an issue and that it fared favorably to the F900 HDCAM.

That's not my experience.
 
I'm having a moment of doubt and/or rationality. Please help. I have an opportunity to get back into filmmaking after a long hiatus but I don't know if I should buy the 100B or HVX200. I know this has been discussed before but for me I don't want to make the wrong move regarding quality and I want to be financially wise. I have three projects in mind that I could foresee needing HD--they are visually big and in need of 16:9 ratio and 4:2:2 colour and 750 lines of resolution. But the earliest that one of those might begin is a year or two away. In the immeadiate one to two years there is one commissioned medical docus this year and another next year, several intimate character driven docu's, possibly a wedding or so, some sports demo's for scholorship hunting atheletes, and some experimental shorts and comedies. Should I buy the 100B now and sell it when the projects warrant that I buy the HVX, or get the HVX now and start learning? If any of our projects is "worthy" then can't we upgrade to HD (for that matter whover buys it would). Isn't that cheaper in the long run than "future proofing" your projects by shooting HD and downconverting (that's if you can afford all the space to store it on). Also there is a slim possibly that I'll do one project and go back on hiatus and resell the equipment. What then is the best choice with that scenario?
 
cici said:
The HVX will work in the heat of the desert, when (as the test proved) all other non-P2 cameras shut down.... you don't mind?
Click to expand...

Well, I live in Arizona and that statement is crap. I've been using all types of cameras for years.

cici said:
The HVX will never record any tape-noises, recording onto P2 or FS, will be ready to record IMMEDIATELY, EVEN IF YOU JUST WATCH THE FOOTAGE made first on the P2 card.... just switch to record mode and record! - No need to be afraid to delete some previous scenes. .... You don't mind?
Click to expand...

Oversimplification. Most people will be using hard drives, since the P2's don't hold enough. When I ask questions about the fan noise of these HD recorders, the RF, etc. nobody has any answers... so we don't really know a damn thing yet in that area.
 
Mitch_Ives said:
Well, I live in Arizona and that statement is crap. I've been using all types of cameras for years.



Oversimplification. Most people will be using hard drives, since the P2's don't hold enough. When I ask questions about the fan noise of these HD recorders, the RF, etc. nobody has any answers... so we don't really know a damn thing yet in that area.
Click to expand...

a) that test was of course with a certain temperature.... there are also cold deserts, so why do you call it "crap" without knowing the conditions of the test? (102 degrees) The point is, that P2 systems are less temperature sensitive than tape-based systems. And sometimes it's just enough to leave the camera in a closed car under direct sunlight... I didn't say that you can't film in the desert with non-P2 cameras, but I said, that P2 lasts longer if the conditions start to get too hard for tape-based cameras... if you read my post carefully, you will find the word "when" - this doesn't mean in any case, but the moment the other cameras stop recording, the P2-cam will go on. Depending on condition. Jan mentioned that "bake" test that you can read here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showpost.php?p=336417&postcount=24 and this test runs at 102 degrees. Still crap?

b) same issue: depending on the conditions, a P2-camera CAN BE very silent, as we have been told here in this forum - so YES, WE DO KNOW THIS ONE YET. Usually tape-based cameras both make noise and if you use built-in mic then some of them even record that noice. When I talk about the advantages of P2, of course I don't talk about recording on a hd. The HVX running with P2is silent. It's YOU making it loud if you attach a fan cooled device on it. It's like using a cheap 35mm-adapter on the HVX and then say: the HVX's optics sucks! The hd is not part of the HVX.


Cici
 
Barry_Green said:
If Panasonic did as JVC did, the first customers in the US wouldn't be getting theirs until the end of April. But already they've delivered into the hands of end users and more are coming, hopefully many more customers will have theirs in the next few days. They are running well ahead of JVC's launch pattern.

Sony also had a bit of a backorder situation when the Z1 first came out. They have no problem supplying units now.
Click to expand...

I respectfully beg to differ. At NAB 2005, Panasonic was claiming delivery in late September. "IBC timing, for sure" was heard many times. I was there. When the camera did not deliver by IBC, "December end" became the new mantra.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yes.

April in Las Vegas. See www.nab.org


MSRP:
JVC: $6,295
Sony: $5946
Canon: $8999
Panasonic: $5995.

Of course that's only the start of the question; there's "street price" and there's required accessories and all sorts of things. But these are the manufacturer's MSRP's for the base camera configuration.
Click to expand...

Hi Barry - Again, respectfully, the Sony, Canon and JVC MSRP's quoted are for HD recording configurations, I believe. Is the HVX a comparably HD equipped?
 
limo991 said:
Technically, pixel shifting can give you 50% resolution advantage. I read in Hdforindies that Panasonic's Jan actually said on Creative Cow that they use both horizontal and vertical pixel shifting on the HVX200.

So, if you start with lets say a 720x576 dvx pal sensor, you have to crop it to 16:9 which would be 720x432 active pixels. Adding the advantage of pixel shifting in both directions, this would be 1080x648pixel for luma. In lines, that is 1080*9/16= 607.5 horizontal lines and 648 vertical lines. So, from an engineering point of view it is possible that you can get about 600x650 lines or something similar out of pixel shifting a cropped PAL sensor in a 3xccd system.

Pixel shifting in a valid technique and actually increases luma resolution up to 50%. The canon XL1 uses pixel shifting in horizontal axis only to get 270k sensor to 410k luma result. That is 410/270 or about 50% increaze.

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelFeaturesAct&fcategoryid=115&modelid=8274&pageno=1

Since Jan says they do pixel shifting, we only have to figure from what and to what they pixel shift on the hvx200. DVCPROHD is maximum 1280x1080 at 1080p. If pixel shifting gives 50% increase and since they wouldn't want to pixel shift to something higher than the recorded format capabilites to not loose light with smaller pixels for no reason, they would have to start with 1280/1.5 x 1080/1.5 sensors. That is 853x720. Jan will probably release the actual sensor resolution one day and explain how it is implemented in both axis.

If the camera does use cropped PAL sensors, it will have, as calculated above a maximum of 607 horizontal and 648 vertical lines at reasonable sharpness settings. So it should:

1) Appear inferior in horizontal resolution to cameras with more than 1080 true pixels in horizontal axis, such as JVC HD100 and also Canon XL 1H.

2) Have similar vertical res with 720p cameras.

3) Have similar horizontal resolution or slightly inferior compared to pixel shifted cameras with 960pixel sensors as the Sony FX1.

The problem with all this is that we wouldn't be able to tell, even if the camera had a true sensor with lets say 1920 pixels horizontally, since the DVCPROHD format has 1280 horizontal pixels, less than HDV cameras at 1080 (1440 pixels) and same at 720p (1280 pixels), it would appear lower horizontal res compared to other 1080 cameras and similar res with 720p. Simply put, the horizontal capability of DVCPROHD 1080p is 1280 and is the same with the 1280x720 formats on the market and smaller than the other 1080 formats..
Click to expand...

This comes remarkably close to what I understand may be the technique used. Thanks, limo991, for doing your homework and saving me a comlicated post!:thumbsup:
 
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