so close... have a strange image question

S

sporter

Member
hey guys - well over the last three days I decided it was time to make some changes to my panny. Started with taking the thing apart and ended with a little hack-saw action.

I will post more info on my manual conversion, but I ran into a strange problem that I am hoping you all might be able to help me solve so i can start doing some benchmark/comparision tests.

As the pictures make fairly evident, the camera has been pretty re-worked. All circuits are connected besides lens control and feedback.

Basically the camera works completely fine in 30i and 30p mode.. however when I switch it over to 24p or 24pa suddenly the image becomes dark, and the blacks just completely take over. Almost reminded me of an exaggerated black-level raise as seen in LP mode compression. Why the image is fine in 30p and crappy in 24p is beyond me. It doesnt seem to be a hardware issue, because during the processing "flicker" I can see the camera operating in 24p with normal levels for a split second, and then the camera kicks in this funky effect.

Is there some sort of master reset I should try? I see what looks like a diagnostics port on the back of the camera, maybe a panasonic tech can help me out. Other than that all settings are at 0, with cine gamma and cine-like matrix, step-up is 0%

here is a link to a test video I quickly shot this morning showing the effect. No camera settings were changed, aperture was riding a f16. It is really drastic, all shadow detail is completely lost. Sorry for the fuzzy image - so rushed I havent even cleaned the lens yet!

http://www.swingsetfilm.com/projects/dvxm/dvxm_test.mpg

dvxm1.jpg


dvxm2.jpg


dvxm3.jpg


thanks for all your help in advance!

sean
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

I don't even know what to say....what exactly did you do to the camera? What kind of lense is that?!
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

I will do a formal write-up and post more information on the conversion soon, I just am hoping to get some help to get this thing up and running correctly. Basically I cut the sucker in half, ditched the leica, and remounted the ccd.

the lens is a canon f1.4 7.5-100mm 1/2" c-mount

sean
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

Where's the steel bolts sticking outta the sides, so you can charge it up with lightning...?

Give my creation....LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIFE!

:D
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

And you think we can help you how?

Oh I know what’s wrong... You inversely wired the flux capacitor module to the wrong set of Dioptic transistors.
Just bypass the Zeiner diode module by using some 24awg wire and some tin foil.

Should fix you right up.


Oh by the way... I think you might have voided your warranty.  ;D ;D ;D
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

the pictures might be throwing you off. the camera really isnt much different than stock. all relevant circuits are un-modified and connected. I am hoping someone might have had a similar problem to what I described. Basically when i switch to 24p my image darkens considerably, as if I suddenly had only 2 stops of latitude. 30i looks fine. 30p looked ok until this aftenoon when I white-balanced in 30p and it took on characteristics of the other progressive modes. Makes me think it might be somehow related to the white balance circuit, which also connects to gain and iris controls... not sure what to make of that. Although in 30i the image is fine, even if I change white balance.

here are stills to show the effect if you dont want to download the clip:

test30p.jpg


test30p_2.jpg


test24p.jpg


test24p_2.jpg
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

I looked at your mpeg and now your images and it looks like it is setting your master ped to -15. Try going into the scene file settings. I have found that the truest black without crushing them is found at about -5 on your master ped. Are you swtiching the dial or are you switching into 24p within the scene file settings?
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

you might also check to see what your gamma settings are set to.

And if you wanted to set everything back to it's original settings you might try the reset button under the flipout LCD.
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

all camera settings are at 0, with 0% setup.  I am not switching scene files, just changing the shooting mode within the scenefile menu.  The really weird thing is when you switch it from 30i ot 24p there is a distinct moment at the end of the "switching" where its obviously 24p and it looks great - then the color correction/effect kicks in as the last thing to load and it all goes to crap.  It feels like its some lame preset issue, but everything is set to normal.  It also apears as if the camera is unable to white-balance correctly in the progressive modes.. although works fine in 30i...

edit: I have tried the reset button =(
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

OK, OK I'm being serious now.

Did it work before the modification?

Did it work anytime after the modification?

What does it do when you remove the lense housing.

Is anything in a bind? Metal touching any circuits, shorting them out?

How and when did the problem actually start?

What changed between now and then?

Sorry, for the above post it obviously wasn't funny...

Alot of questions but this is how I rule out the simple stuff. :D
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

Thanks, I'll try and work you through these:

[quote author=HartStudio link=board=Events;num=1108336295;start=0#9 date=02/14/05 at 13:22:16]OK, OK I'm being serious now.

Did it work before the modification? [/quote]

Yes the camera worked 100% correctly before the modification.

Did it work anytime after the modification?
Click to expand...

After discovering that it might have something to do with the camera's white balance adjustment, I cannot be 100% sure the camera performed correctly in 24p or 24pa at anytime after the modification. 30p worked correctly until I white-balanced.. then it took on the same dark characteristics and will no longer white balance correctly. 30i did and continues to function properly, even when white-balancing.

What does it do when you remove the lense housing.
Click to expand...

if you remove the lens, its just like any other interchangable lens camera - raw light enters the ccd, you get extremely blurry colors, mostly white light.

Is anything in a bind? Metal touching any circuits, shorting them out?
Click to expand...

This could still be a potential issue. All boards were taped and secured inside the housing, but this is something I should check and recheck. Maybe somehow one of the wb circuits is shorting and causing this strange behavior. But again, if it was bad, doesnt it make sense it would behave improperly in 30i mode as well?

How and when did the problem actually start?
Click to expand...

From what I can remember, the camera displayed this problem from the first time it was booted up (in 24pa) after the modification. Again, 30p looked fine until I engaged the white balance. I am wondering if progressive needs extra attention from the camera in some sort of a feedback mechanism. Although after looking at the wiring harness for the lens i didnt see anything except focus control, iris control and a sensor for the ND switch. I suppose I could try plugging that harness back in so atleast the camera is getting some sort of feedback from the non-existent lens and see if that changes anything. I guess I am just curious how/why the progessive modes would be that much different than the interlaced signal.

The fact that I when I try performing a white balance in a progressive mode pretends to work but fails to make any adjustment leads me to worry about the white balance circuit.. which shares information between the iris control and gain functions (which seems very odd considering gain is not applicable to progressive shooting).

What changed between now and then?
Click to expand...

All that has really changed is I removed the harness that gives the camera information from the old lens. All other circuits (besides the handle record/zoom ribbon) are in place.

thanks guys.. i hope there is light at the end of this dark tunnel!
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

Wow. Amazing. This site never ceases to amaze me. When I read the first few words of his post, "changes to the panny." I thought matte box, manual focus assist, the usual... but then the words hacksaw...! Then I look at the pics. Wow. So I got out my DVX, layed it on the table next to a hacksaw, looked at the two of them, and I thought, now some people really have balls! Congratulations Sporter. Good luck, and let everyone know how it goes. Hope it works for you, cause I'm guessing theres no going back now.
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

Yeah. You in all likelihood have to deal with the fact that you hosed your camera.
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

:o

You know, I hear the XL2 has an interchangeable lens system... No hacksaw required...

Seriously, look at it this way, without great risk there are no great rewards. I wish you the best of luck and hope you can get this to work!

Matt
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

I assume the bene to this design was for using different lenses? Why not use the Mini35 design where NO HACKSAW is needed and warranty doesn't go bye bye? I ask as I am trying understand your monster.

Also, You say the settings are set; but you mention the switch to 24p and 24pa ? Are you sure those settings apply to these scene files and ont the one you switched from? Have you tried changing the settings around?

No offense, but these grabs kind of suck so again, I'm wondering what the bene to this is/was? Different lens?

Good luck with this; I'm curious how this plays out.
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

I'm certainly curious too. I gotta admit it looks pretty cool. Sporter has more balls than I'd ever attempt at having. He's obviously pretty smart at engineering. ...or something. And I'm betting that if 99% of the people on here, hack sawed their lense off, the chance of that camera ever producing ANY type of image again, would be extremely slim. So again, good luck Sporter, I think you're treading on uncharted territory...
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

LOL

Too true! I have the engineering skills of a 'duck billed platypus'. Okay, I dont know what that means but you get the gist!
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

[quote author=HartStudio link=board=Events;num=1108336295;start=0#4 date=02/13/05 at 16:21:38]Oh I know what’s wrong... You inversely wired the flux capacitor module to the wrong set of Dioptic transistors.
Just bypass the Zeiner diode module by using some 24awg wire and some tin foil. Should fix you right up. Oh by the way... I think you might have voided your warranty.[/quote]

I thought it was freakin hilarious. I almost choked on my lollipop. Not funny for this DVX owner, though.
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

You know, I hear the XL2 has an interchangeable lens system... No hacksaw required...
Click to expand...

thanks, but I cant afford one (and I wouldnt buy one if I had the money)

I assume the bene to this design was for using different lenses? Why not use the Mini35 design where NO HACKSAW is needed and warranty doesn't go bye bye? I ask as I am trying understand your monster.
Click to expand...

the idea was triggered by several factors:
1. I was unhappy with the performance of the leica. The build quality was very poor (seems like they improved it slightly on a 100a I had a chance to look at) and after owning a dv500 I felt the focus control and zoom was extremely unresponsive. I was in love with the accurate, repeatable, and reliable lens control of the JVC. No small crappy iris control with 1/6 stop intervals.

2. the Canon c-mount lens is faster than the DVX (past f1.4), a 7.5-90mm zoom,and came with accesory mounts for follow focus whips and has very sturdy construction.

3. Knowing I would most likely use a 35mm adapter in the future (my start at building one http://www.porterworks.com/dxarts/) I wanted the final image to go through the least amount of glass as possible.

4. I felt I could achieve a setup I would be more satisfied with given limited time and $$ (the project took 3 days and <$80)

5. I have never seen it done.

Also, You say the settings are set; but you mention the switch to 24p and 24pa ? Are you sure those settings apply to these scene files and ont the one you switched from? Have you tried changing the settings around?
Click to expand...

in my previous post:
all camera settings are at 0, with 0% setup. I am not switching scene files, just changing the shooting mode within the scenefile menu.
Click to expand...

Yes I have tried negotiating the various corrections to no avail.


No offense, but these grabs kind of suck so again, I'm wondering what the bene to this is/was?
Click to expand...

I mentioned this early on - those stills were taken before any benchmarks were done. The backfocus is not callibrated. The lens is quite dirty. Please dont judge the image quality at this point. I am just looking to solve these issues before really setting up the camera.

I feel the way the camera looks has altered perspectives on the problem. Please consider as if this effect happened to a stock dvx. What would be your guess as to the cause?

thank you for your continued support everybody.
 
Re: so close... have a strange image question

[quote author=sporter link=board=Events;num=1108336295;start=15#18 date=02/14/05 at 18:24:40]thanks, but I cant afford one (and I wouldnt buy one if I had the money)[/quote]

Yet, you'll use a canon lens on your DVX?  Makes perfect sense to me,  your not wanting to buy one even if you could afford it that is.   That's cool.  I'll get back on the short bus with the rest of the XL2 owners.  Now where did I put my hacksaw, oh that's right I don't need one.  Stupid me.  Boy sure do wish *I* were smart enough to saw open *MY* camera....  

::)
 
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