Oh ye not in pal 24P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJAeQfledmI
So actually, how bad is aliasing really?
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Jean Dantes
Well-known member
Not too bad. I think it's been severely blown out of proportion.
Darky Mikado
Active member
Depends. How much do you care about the image? Or the client (if it's a commercial venture)? That's what really settles it.
wgzn
Veteran
and you have to ask yourself how its going to go over with your clients. if youre an indie-feature shooter, it may be more acceptable than if you do corporate work.
case in point. most clients watch movies every day and never even notice the "24p cadence" or "judder" but wait until they ask you to shoot "film look" and they come back and ask you why the logo on their delivery truck as it drives by at 30mph is "strobing"
my clients would generally go ape-poop if the brick wall behind their new sign suddenly looked like a kaleidoscope. so for me, noticeable moire is a huge deal breaker.
for you? maybe not as much...
case in point. most clients watch movies every day and never even notice the "24p cadence" or "judder" but wait until they ask you to shoot "film look" and they come back and ask you why the logo on their delivery truck as it drives by at 30mph is "strobing"
my clients would generally go ape-poop if the brick wall behind their new sign suddenly looked like a kaleidoscope. so for me, noticeable moire is a huge deal breaker.
for you? maybe not as much...
Your wrong...... Watching the Superbowl a month+ ago there was Moire everywhere, especially on the players jerseys. Just last week watching the All Star Game I saw it again Everywhere......... 9 out of 10 people don't care, people need to relax. If it's that bad with your Hdslr all you have to do is frame your shot different and use another angle, Very simple......
wgzn
Veteran
first things first. in this case, the word is YOU'RE = you+are. not YOUR = something that is yours.
but i'm not "wrong". where in what you quoted from my post is anything incorrect? i was simply stating my experience with the situation.
i may have a lower degree of acceptance of it than you do. but i'm not incorrect.
side by side, shooting the same scene, a canon will typically exhibit more moire than say a gh2 or hvx. that's just a fact. but that's not really the topic of this thread
the two examples you've cited are subjective. they're sporting events. generally short clips. camera often in motion. rapid sequential bursts of moire will generally be more tolerable than a featured shot with a slow crawl on a brick wall where the moire pattern is morphing throughout the shot.
but life4eva, your argument (though clumsily crafted) IS a good example of this situation being to some degree subjective. depending on what you shoot and what YOUR expectations are...
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Barry_Green
Moderator
I watched that same Super Bowl, and there was never a speck of moire. I would suggest that if you're seeing moire from a major top of the line camera such as is used to film the super bowl, it's being introduced somewhere in your TV (perhaps watching a standard-def TV? the downconversion from HD to SD can certainly create moire if it's not done well). One thing I can absolutely guarantee you is that there is zero moire in the original footage they shot, and zero moire coming off those live camera heads.
arniepix
Well-known member
A lot of that moire may be introduced by your cable or satellite provider. Or introduced in your own TV set. I seriously doubt that there was any moire in the signal coming out of the broadcast booth.
That's not the point. The OP stated that he cares, that he finds it unacceptable. YMMV, but that's his opinion based on his own standard for quality, not MTV's, not Paramount's, not the BBC's. I respect that, and, to be honest, I agree largely with it.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
I don't know about moire, but "aliasing created by your TV set" is totally real; in many cases, it's not your TV set but your settings (artificial sharpening and things like that), but sometimes no change in settings will solve the issue
given moire is just an extreme manifestation of aliasing, I'd bet it can be created by the TV also, but only for specific images
given moire is just an extreme manifestation of aliasing, I'd bet it can be created by the TV also, but only for specific images
Francesco Dal Bosco
Active member
After some months with the Canon 60D I must admit the moire problem in this camera is a serious one. When I'm shooting I'm worried all the time about aliasing. This is not the best way to make a film work.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Absolutely. It can be caused by an upconversion or downconversion (720p signal playing on a 1080p screen could cause it, but not that likely; 1080i playing on a 720p screen could definitely cause it). Or it could be introduced by your cable TV service -- during their recompression, especially if they're scaling the signal. I see it all the time in DVD upconversions on cable TV, when I know for a fact it's not on the DVD itself.
DCTBradJohnson
Active member
I watched 3rd Rock From The Sun on Netflix last night via Nintendo Wii on my HDTV and saw moire/aliasing everywhere. The series was filmed on Panavision cameras and lenses. I guarantee you my current viewing setup is degrading the image and introducing the artifacts much more than what I remember seeing broadcast on my tv live during the shows run. And I guarantee you the image that was broadcast live on tv during the shows run was degraded a lot from the original film negative when projected in its native resolution.
Lets forget about the Moire for a second, both of those clips look horrible. Also you could have easily angled the 60d to not show the Moire, I use one every day so I know.....
pulpfiction007
Veteran
I don't think the CINEMATIC quality of the clips is important here - it's a comparison to show how each camera handles a situation that often introduces moire and in a thread asking how bad it is I think it's appropriate to not try and shoot around it (would defeat the whole purpose) It would be cool to see someone shoot this situation on a Canon and then show how they resolve the issue - defocus, different angle, etc.
You could take a still photo with your 60D - that would get rid of the aliasing.....I have (had) a Canon T2i - i used to use it everyday so I know the aliasing & moire
was totally unacceptable in getting quality results when it came to high detail on wider shots. Please post your clip that is "easily angled" to minimize the aliasing & moire.
wgzn
Veteran
i wont go so far as to say you're wrong. but that's just not an acceptable solution IMO.
and i will disagree with you on the subject of easily changing the angle. for two reasons:
1. what if the angle i had was the one i wanted and that worked for the shot?
2. i played with a slow zoom on a shingled roof recently. one angle had significant moire. so i moved the camera slightly and it was gone. COOL! but what happened was another instance of moire just showed up at a later point in the crawl.
and what if you changed your angle to minimize the roof moire, but the change introduced it in the bricks? or the window screens?
i just dont see moving the camera being a reasonable solution.
if moire isnt a problem for you, thats great. im not trying to change anyone's mind or tell them they're wrong.
but the question at hand here is "how bad is it really?" and the answer clearly is that for some people its not a problem. but for others its unacceptable..
two facts remain. IT DOES EXIST. and its not uncommon.
personally, ive seen enough swirling brick walls and pulsating sweaters to sour me on the issue. so i bought a gh2. and so far, no noticeable moire. and ive tried to make it happen
i just don't see spending + or - $2000 on a camera i know is likely to be problematic in certain, reasonably common scenarios.
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