Singh Ray Vari ND Duo

[Bobonli]

Is anyone using this? It's their variable ND filter with a warming polarizer incorporated into it.

I've come across several situations in the first 3 weeks of 7D ownership where a ND was needed outdoors. Just not sure I want or need the polarizer present all the time.

Any thoughts from variable ND users? Do you ever feel the need to have a polarizer built in and do you think having it there all the time would be a benefit or liability (extra glass increases possibility of vignetting).

Note: I've used SR filters for stills for years so I plan to stick with the brand.

Thanks

 

[ydgmdlu]

All variable ND filters are polarizers. The only difference of the Vari-N-Duo is that it offers an additional ring so that you can adjust the polarization angle.

In my opinion, the Vari-N-Duo is a rip-off. You can literally make the same product yourself with a pair of polarizers, a linear one screwed on top of a circular one. This gives you something with two rings and approximately the same thickness as the Vari-N-Duo. Vari-ND and Fader ND users can at least boast that their filters are thinner and simpler than a stacked pair of polarizers, but I really don't see how any sort of case can be made in favor of the Vari-N-Duo over the DIY solution, unless you insist on brand loyalty.

 

[bwwd]

I wanted to ask about faders ND ,what kind of faders do you guys have and do they tend to tint your footage to blue like mine does ? Also i have problems with focusing with 80-205mm lens when im in 200mm range ,i cant focus actually because two polarizers stacked together prevent this.I want to know if some guys have problems with focusing with real ND faders and do they tint when closed ,also do you guys losing some sharpness or not much ?
Two stacked polarizers wont cut it for me.

 

[bluesgeek]

I’m asking for advice on having the permanent polarizer on the Vari ND Duo, because while it would potentially be a great thing to dial in polarization as you would dial in ND, it may present a cumbersome distraction to have to worry about the polarizer angle when panning/tilting or (perhaps more dangerously), rotating the camera angle (which would have the same effect as changing the polarizer angle). On the other hand, Singh-Ray has told me that screwing an additional polarizer onto the front of the regular Vari ND when you want polarization is not ideal.

For those not familiar with the product, they use a different type of polarizer on the Duo that provides variable polarization independent of the variable ND. The way it is used is to rotate the back filter to set ND, and then to rotate the two together to set polarization.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

 

[ydgmdlu]

I wanted to ask about faders ND ,what kind of faders do you guys have and do they tend to tint your footage to blue like mine does ?

Yes, there is a color shift towards blue on variable ND filters, and it's specifically because of the two polarizers. Certain polarizers shift more or less than others do, so it depends on the glass. The shift should only happen near the "max" end. Regular ND filters don't (or shouldn't) do this. They also shouldn't affect sharpness because they're supposed to only block all wavelengths equally, instead of selectively allowing certain light rays to pass (which is what polarizers do).

 

[ydgmdlu]

On the other hand, Singh-Ray has told me that screwing an additional polarizer onto the front of the regular Vari ND when you want polarization is not ideal.

This is because the net result would be having three polarizers stacked on top of each other.

For those not familiar with the product, they use a different type of polarizer on the Duo that provides variable polarization independent of the variable ND.

No, as I explained above, the Vari-N-Duo is essentially identical to a relatively inexpensive DIY solution. There's no such thing as a "different type of polarizer." As far as photography goes, there's only one kind of polarizer, which is linear. Even so-called circular polarizers use linear polarizers as their front element; the only difference is that the rear element is a quarter-wave plate. Thus, the Vari-N-Duo is just the Vari-ND with slightly different mechanics, having two rings instead of one.

The way it is used is to rotate the back filter to set ND, and then to rotate the two together to set polarization.

My point exactly.

 

[bluesgeek]

Originally Posted by bluesgeek
On the other hand, Singh-Ray has told me that screwing an additional polarizer onto the front of the regular Vari ND when you want polarization is not ideal.

This is because the net result would be having three polarizers stacked on top of each other.

Which, is in essence what Singh-Ray says the Duo is. There are two polarizers locked into the front ring layer.

By "not ideal" I meant, not the most efficient interface.

Originally Posted by bluesgeek
For those not familiar with the product, they use a different type of polarizer on the Duo that provides variable polarization independent of the variable ND.

No, as I explained above, the Vari-N-Duo is essentially identical to a relatively inexpensive DIY solution. There's no such thing as a "different type of polarizer." As far as photography goes, there's only one kind of polarizer, which is linear. Even so-called circular polarizers use linear polarizers as their front element; the only difference is that the rear element is a quarter-wave plate.

I guess I worded that incorrectly. The "different type of polarizer" is what I'm referring to as that front ring.

Thus, the Vari-N-Duo is just the Vari-ND with slightly different mechanics, having two rings instead of one.

I'm sure you know what you're talking about regarding the basic physics of this type of product, but as I'm describing, Singh-Ray says it's more than the mechanics of just loosening up the rear ring.

Yes, I know that works with a DIY stack, but Singh-Ray also claims that the Vari ND will not vary polarization controllably, even if you were to rotate both elements together (for example by having the unit sitting loose in the lens filter threads or by holding it up to the lens, and rotating both together). So, that would imply something else going on in the engineering other than two separately rotating polarizers. (Every photography student has been wowed by that classroom demonstration.)

And I've played around with the DIY solution and have found it awkward, inconsistent, and difficult to control—not something I would want to use on the on the job. I suppose that I could experiment with trying to match polarizers for better results, but I could end up spending as much or more money trying to do that. I see too many issues being reported with the Fader ND, so I've just ordered the Duo.

BTW, I spoke with a manufacturer rep from a high-end filter company and was told that they have looked at the Singh-Ray and found it to be a good technology, which they hope to soon compete with. So we can look forward to advancements in the field.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Which, is in essence what Singh-Ray says the Duo is. There are two polarizers locked into the front ring layer.

I'm not sure what you mean. Please clarify. Singh-Ray says that the Vari-N-Duo incorporates their "Warming Polarizer," but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's an additional polarizer. The Warming Polarizer could've just taken the place of one of the elements in the Vari ND.

I'm sure you know what you're talking about regarding the basic physics of this type of product, but as I'm describing, Singh-Ray says it's more than the mechanics of just loosening up the rear ring.

Where does Singh-Ray claim that?

Yes, I know that works with a DIY stack, but Singh-Ray also claims that the Vari ND will not vary polarization controllably, even if you were to rotate both elements together (for example by having the unit sitting loose in the lens filter threads or by holding it up to the lens, and rotating both together). So, that would imply something else going on in the engineering other than two separately rotating polarizers.

This doesn't make sense to me, and I'm getting the impression that you might not know how polarization works. When light goes through one polarizer, light rays are blocked except for those going in a certain direction. Then when the light passes through another polarizer, more rays are blocked in a similar fashion. When two stacked polarizers are perpendicular to each other, the directions of blockage exactly complement each other, blocking almost all light. The second polarizer in the stack controls the final polarization angle. So by rotating the whole stack, you control the polarization angle. How polarization can be somehow "uncontrollable" with any polarizer (including the Vari ND) is just an incoherent notion. There's simply no other way to polarize the light or control the angle and still have the filter function in the way that Singh-Ray claims.

The only other way to polarize light for photography is circular polarization. But there are two issues with this. First of all, there's no such thing as a controllable single-element circular polarizer. As I've said, circular polarizers are made by stacking a linear polarizer on top of a quarter-wave plate, and polarization angle changes as the the linear polarizer rotates against the quarter-wave plate. Second, stacking two circular polarizers creates a very different effect than variable ND. In fact, Singh-Ray makes another filter exploiting that very effect: It's called the Gold-N-Blue Polarizer.

If I'm missing something, then it's because I'm still not clear on what you're claiming is so different about the Vari-N-Duo.

And I've played around with the DIY solution and have found it awkward, inconsistent, and difficult to control—not something I would want to use on the on the job.

From the picture and the description, the Vari-N-Duo would seem to work similarly to the DIY solution, though most likely with better mechanics. Just be prepared for that. I would love to be proven wrong, however, so that I won't repeat the bad information in the future.

What do you mean by "inconsistent," BTW?

I see too many issues being reported with the Fader ND, so I've just ordered the Duo.

How does doubt in one product turn into confidence in another, very similar product? How can you be sure that the Singh-Ray is free of those issues?

I hope that there's a good return policy if you're not satisfied.

 

[bluesgeek]

I'm not sure what you mean. Please clarify. Singh-Ray says that the Vari-N-Duo incorporates their "Warming Polarizer," but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's an additional polarizer. The Warming Polarizer could've just taken the place of one of the elements in the Vari ND.


Where does Singh-Ray claim that?

On the phone. More than one person there described this "proprietary" process of combining two polarizing elements into one ring.

This doesn't make sense to me, and I'm getting the impression that you might not know how polarization works. When light goes through one polarizer, light rays are blocked except for those going in a certain direction. Then when the light passes through another polarizer, more rays are blocked in a similar fashion. When two stacked polarizers are perpendicular to each other, the directions of blockage exactly complement each other, blocking almost all light. The second polarizer in the stack controls the final polarization angle. So by rotating the whole stack, you control the polarization angle. How polarization can be somehow "uncontrollable" with any polarizer (including the Vari ND) is just an incoherent notion. There's simply no other way to polarize the light or control the angle and still have the filter function in the way that Singh-Ray claims.

My bad way of saying things. By controllable, I'm referring to spinning two-rings vs. three, nothing more than that. Sorry. My own experience with trying to control both ND and polarization with a stack has been very iffy.

The only other way to polarize light for photography is circular polarization. But there are two issues with this. First of all, there's no such thing as a controllable single-element circular polarizer. As I've said, circular polarizers are made by stacking a linear polarizer on top of a quarter-wave plate, and polarization angle changes as the the linear polarizer rotates against the quarter-wave plate. Second, stacking two circular polarizers creates a very different effect than variable ND. In fact, Singh-Ray makes another filter exploiting that very effect: It's called the Gold-N-Blue Polarizer.

If I'm missing something, then it's because I'm still not clear on what you're claiming is so different about the Vari-N-Duo.

Well, I'm not claiming anything, only trying to report on my phone calls with Singh-Ray. (And I hope I'm doing that accurately, if unintelligably) :2vrolijk_08:

From the picture and the description, the Vari-N-Duo would seem to work similarly to the DIY solution, though most likely with better mechanics. Just be prepared for that. I would love to be proven wrong, however, so that I won't repeat the bad information in the future.

And I hope they're right, because I'm out the $400. Yes, and I'm trying not to repeat bad information too. I'm guessing that there's more to the engineering of this product than mechanics, and that there is some benefit to be gained from the research and consideration that likely goes into creating the optics that would work together in it. I don't think this is just a matter of form factor. They have to have learned something about the physics that neither of us is looking at.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by "inconsistent," BTW?

When you look at all the variables that I have to work with in a DIY, in terms of grabbing two filters out of my shoebox and trying to get that to work in a way that I can predict the effect and have confidence in the results, I would say that my experience has been inconsistent. [/QUOTE]

How does doubt in one product turn into confidence in another, very similar product? How can you be sure that the Singh-Ray is free of those issues?

My confidence in Singh-Ray is a separate consideration. I haven't seen any complaints on the Vary ND. Perhaps we're hearing about some slight change in the color, but with the Fader ND we are seeing some real image problems. And Lightcraft has acknowledged issues, has apparently stopped selling, and is presumably attempting to come back in April/May with something better than the flawed produced they dumped into the market initially.

Rather than say I have confidence in Singh-Ray, let's say I have my fingers crossed. I just can't get to even that mind space about Lightcraft... yet. I wish both companies well. I hope Lightcraft comes back with something better (and still inexpensive).

I hope that there's a good return policy if you're not satisfied.

I would be equally concerned with the return policy of the Fader ND sellers.

 

[ydgmdlu]

On the phone. More than one person there described this "proprietary" process of combining two polarizing elements into one ring.

Perhaps they are right, even though it still doesn't make much sense to me. But then again, as you probably know, many CSRs on the phone don't really know what they're saying.

My bad way of saying things. By controllable, I'm referring to spinning two-rings vs. three, nothing more than that. Sorry. My own experience with trying to control both ND and polarization with a stack has been very iffy.

Perfectly understandable.

And I hope they're right, because I'm out the $400. Yes, and I'm trying not to repeat bad information too. I'm guessing that there's more to the engineering of this product than mechanics, and that there is some benefit to be gained from the research and consideration that likely goes into creating the optics that would work together in it. I don't think this is just a matter of form factor. They have to have learned something about the physics that neither of us is looking at.

To be fair, we don't really know what they had to do to create this product, though I'm inclined to be cynical. Only you will have a better idea once you have it in your hands, so please report on it ASAP!

When you look at all the variables that I have to work with in a DIY, in terms of grabbing two filters out of my shoebox and trying to get that to work in a way that I can predict the effect and have confidence in the results, I would say that my experience has been inconsistent.

I'm still not sure what you mean here. How does the DIY job behave inconsistently and unpredictably? One point that I will give to Singh-Ray, LCW, Genus, and other brands is that they do include that ND scale on the ring, which does improve the usability of the product.

My confidence in Singh-Ray is a separate consideration. I haven't seen any complaints on the Vary ND. Perhaps we're hearing about some slight change in the color, but with the Fader ND we are seeing some real image problems. And Lightcraft has acknowledged issues, has apparently stopped selling, and is presumably attempting to come back in April/May with something better than the flawed produced they dumped into the market initially.

Rather than say I have confidence in Singh-Ray, let's say I have my fingers crossed. I just can't get to even that mind space about Lightcraft... yet. I wish both companies well. I hope Lightcraft comes back with something better (and still inexpensive).

I have no doubt that the Singh-Ray is a quality product that's probably free of the image softness issue, but my point was simply that until someone posts similar test images of the Vari ND, we won't know for sure. On such an expensive product, I would prefer to take essentially the opposite approach as you: Assume the worst and not buy it now, rather than hoping for the best. Price is the main deciding factor here. If it were much cheaper, I would not hesitate nearly as much to choose or recommend it.

I would be equally concerned with the return policy of the Fader ND sellers.

That's fair, but again, price is a deciding factor for me. Recently, I bought a 58mm Fader ND for only $64. And I bought it to achieve a special effect. So the return policy doesn't concern me very much.

 

[Bobonli]

I ended up buying one. I don"t see a color shift, but I've only had one occasion to use it. Having the two rings to adjust is not a problem. I decided to go this route for two reasons:

1) I have other SR filters and they made well and have lasted nearly 15 years.
2) I'd rather not stack a polarizer on top of the ND. Having all of the glass "sandwiched" by them makes it thinner than I think I could accomplish by DIY.

Happy with the product.

Bob

 

[Emanuel]

I am still wondering about the differences with the Fader ND...

 

[ydgmdlu]

I'd rather not stack a polarizer on top of the ND. Having all of the glass "sandwiched" by them makes it thinner than I think I could accomplish by DIY.

Just to be clear, the DIY solution is NOT to screw a polarizer on top of a variable ND filter. Instead, the solution is to screw a linear polarizer on top of a circular polarizer. Many brands offer slim-framed circular polarizers nowadays, so when you combine that with a linear polarizer, the total thickness would be about the same as the Vari-ND-Duo.

Would you mind reporting on whether or not there's a significant loss of image sharpness when used with long focal lengths? Pictures would help...

 

[ydgmdlu]

I am still wondering about the differences with the Fader ND...

The difference is that the Vari-N-Duo has an additional ring so that you can rotate both polarizers together instead of just the top one. This way, you can adjust the polarization angle of the whole filter, making it much more usable as a polarizer. That's also why the filter is thicker than the Fader ND.

Please note that the Singh-Ray Vari-N-Duo is a separate product from the Singh-Ray Vari ND.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

I LOVE my Singh Ray Vari ND.


That being said, I would NEVER introduce any warmth or color cast into my footage that wasn't already present.

That is what post is for.

 

[Emanuel]

The difference is that the Vari-N-Duo has an additional ring so that you can rotate both polarizers together instead of just the top one. This way, you can adjust the polarization angle of the whole filter, making it much more usable as a polarizer. That's also why the filter is thicker than the Fader ND.

Please note that the Singh-Ray Vari-N-Duo is a separate product from the Singh-Ray Vari ND.

Yes but I'm still wondering about the differences on the IQ (image quality) between both Singh-Ray and Fader ND.

 

[Zissou]

i bought a singh-ray, and feel it was WAAAY overpriced. bought a Fader ND, nature brand, and got my moneys' worth.

frankly i will never again buy a singh-ray. for the same price i bought 3 Fader ND's

 

[bluesgeek]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesgeek
On the phone. More than one person there described this "proprietary" process of combining two polarizing elements into one ring.

Perhaps they are right, even though it still doesn't make much sense to me. But then again, as you probably know, many CSRs on the phone don't really know what they're saying.

To be a bit more specific, I spoke with an executive and another representative he designated for my call.

Quote:
...so please report on it ASAP!

Will do!

Quote:
When you look at all the variables that I have to work with in a DIY, in terms of grabbing two filters out of my shoebox and trying to get that to work in a way that I can predict the effect and have confidence in the results, I would say that my experience has been inconsistent.

I'm still not sure what you mean here. How does the DIY job behave inconsistently and unpredictably? One point that I will give to Singh-Ray, LCW, Genus, and other brands is that they do include that ND scale on the ring, which does improve the usability of the product.

What I mean is, I think that different brands and even products of the same brand may be more or less harmonious or effective. There are variables which I'm not capable of addressing. .

Quote:
I have no doubt that the Singh-Ray is a quality product that's probably free of the image softness issue, but my point was simply that until someone posts similar test images of the Vari ND, we won't know for sure. On such an expensive product, I would prefer to take essentially the opposite approach as you: Assume the worst and not buy it now, rather than hoping for the best. Price is the main deciding factor here. If it were much cheaper, I would not hesitate nearly as much to choose or recommend it.

Ah, yes... price. rogar-Shock(DBG): Bob Singh doesn't give anything away.

I think what we're going to see is within the next 6 months to a year, at least one more major player with a state of the art product, and at least one of the products having a layer of IR filtering. Then that will become the standard. I also think we'll see prices more along the lines of $300 for a 77mm.

 

[bluesgeek]

I LOVE my Singh Ray Vari ND.


That being said, I would NEVER introduce any warmth or color cast into my footage that wasn't already present.

That is what post is for.

Yeah, at first I balked at the "warm" polarizer in, but ended up going with the Duo. I hope I'm not disappointed by that that choice.

 

[Zissou]

i have both.

Singh ray is not worth it versus the Fader ND series; same effect, same sharpness, MUCH lower price. I have both BTW. i use the Faders just as much as the SR, no difference, aside from the $200 pricetag.

either way its just a CPL and an LPL anyways. for $300 you damn well better be able to pull off the singh/Fader effect, even with 4x4 rotatable filters.