Signal Routing Question

N

nyquist-x

Active member
Hi Guys!

I'm trying to figure out which is the best way to arrange the sound signal scheme. I attached two graphics with different signal routing. With respect to the mixer, got a generic one that has multiple inputs / outputs.

I look forward to your comments.

Best Regards.
Fernando
 

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1) Is the pictured gear what you're working with (model & quantity), or just random images.
2) What exactly is the goal? If we know exactly what you're trying to do, we can make better suggestions.
 
Signal Routing

Signal Routing

Don't use Heaphone or line out from camera for heaphone amp.
Use mixer.
Click to expand...

Good point, I guess that the output level of the camera´s headphones isn´t enough to feed the headphones amp. What do you suggest to provide adequate cue monitoring with two input selector. Or may be an amperage issue?

JordanBlock said:
1) Is the pictured gear what you're working with (model & quantity), or just random images.
2) What exactly is the goal? If we know exactly what you're trying to do, we can make better suggestions.
Click to expand...

1. I own the fostex recorder and both mic systems, and I´ll purchase the mixer (not that model, maybe a SoundCraft or a Allen & Heath) and the amp power if the scheme turn to be efficient.

2. My main goal is to do production sound on TV spots and shorfilms (indie too). In the first graphic, I can add more than two inputs, so that would be great for indie and short films. The second graphic is just a reduced setup.
In the set, I need several cue mixes, one for myself and one for the director at least.

Thank for your inputs and best regards.
Fernando
 
In this business, particularly as you're just getting going, you're far far more likely to need to run everything from a bag while you boom than you are to have good AC power and a reliable boom op. I'd look into getting a portable mixer and a portable receiver for your wireless.

Sound Devices makes great mixers, and you should still be able to find G2 receivers, assuming that's what you've got.
 
Signal Flow

Signal Flow

JordanBlock said:
In this business, particularly as you're just getting going, you're far far more likely to need to run everything from a bag while you boom than you are to have good AC power and a reliable boom op. I'd look into getting a portable mixer and a portable receiver for your wireless.

Sound Devices makes great mixers, and you should still be able to find G2 receivers, assuming that's what you've got.
Click to expand...

Hi Jordan! Thanks for the fast response. One of the downsides of the history is that I´ve a budget issue and I can´t afford $650 for a SD mixer with 2 channels. Maybe a Sign Video ENG-44 is a better equation for this case ($529 for 4 channels).

Regarding the G2 wireless receiver, I´m trying to find one at good price.

The problem with running from the bag, is the cue issue. How can I send the camera return to the director?

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
Renting is also a solution.

De SD 442 is a good solution.

Be sure to listen to RETURN of the camera or other recording device.
 
TVSound said:
As BRH said, send director a mix off the mixer and not camera return. Anything audio, you want control over. If you cant go the comtek or wireless monitor route, you can send a hard line feed to a headphone distro directly.
http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=HA204

pretty darn cheap
Click to expand...

The roll amplifier is a good idea, but I still have no solution in the case that the Director want to hear the camera return, remember that I don´t have timecode locking both camera and recorder.

Sadly I can´t afford a comtek system (ohh.. they´re so nice :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG))

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
dre83 said:
Renting is also a solution.

De SD 442 is a good solution.

Be sure to listen to RETURN of the camera or other recording device.
Click to expand...

YES! That´s one of my main concerns.. but I´m looking for monitoring system that allow me to feed the director, myself and boom op with the camera return.

Of course, I can´t spend $1k in a monitoring system... well, I know that i´m asking for the impossible, but It has to be a way to do this, without spending that amount of money.

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
Don't get the Rolls - there are lots of posts here already on the problems with it. Look for used equipment. I got my first mixer (a Mackie board) for $199 and it served me very well until I switched over to Boom Recorder and then needed a Firewire board. You can also pick up one of the PSC mixers for a reasonable price used, and they support them very well for repairs, if needed.

Phil
 
ptalsky said:
Don't get the Rolls - there are lots of posts here already on the problems with it. Look for used equipment. I got my first mixer (a Mackie board) for $199 and it served me very well until I switched over to Boom Recorder and then needed a Firewire board. You can also pick up one of the PSC mixers for a reasonable price used, and they support them very well for repairs, if needed.

Phil
Click to expand...

Hi Phil!

Thanks for the tip, I really wasn´t considering a Roll device, I saw too many post describing the horror of this brand. I guess I will try to find a used MixPre (in good/mint cond,.) or a new Mackie ProFX 12 . That should do the trick? Of course, the mackie isn´t battery powered so it limits the functionality.

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
nyquist-x said:
Hi Phil!

Thanks for the tip, I really wasn´t considering a Roll device, I saw too many post describing the horror of this brand. I guess I will try to find a used MixPre (in good/mint cond,.) or a new Mackie ProFX 12 . That should do the trick? Of course, the mackie isn´t battery powered so it limits the functionality.

Best Regards.
Fernando
Click to expand...

I would have second thoughts about the Mackie. Not that it would be a bad product, I own a Mackie for my desk at home. But that mixer is designed for FOH use, not recording, and you're paying for features such as special effects and the graphic equalizer on the outputs that you should never use for film/video recording. With the exception of high-pass filters on the mic inputs and perhaps a subtle touch on channel equalizers to smooth out "problem" voices, the goal is to record the dialog, etc, as pristine as possible. Save everything else for the leisure of post-production. Any tinkering with the sound during recording is in there permanently and if you later decide that your "creativity" just didn't work, there's not much you can do to remove it.
 
nyquist-x said:
The problem with running from the bag, is the cue issue. How can I send the camera return to the director?

Best Regards.
Fernando
Click to expand...

I know a 442 isn't in your budget to buy but perhaps rent. Here's how to do the return with a 442 as the mixer. The mixer is connected to the camera with a "betacam breakaway snake." This feeds the mixer main outputs to the camera's inputs. The snake also has a 1/8 plug to pick up the camera headphone out and return it to the mixer (and also a 1/8 jack tap to allow the camera operator to monitor on his own phones). The mixer allows one to select whether to monitor the mixer output bus or the camera return in the headphones. Mixer also has two headphone outputs, the sound person plug into one, the other feeds to a headphone distribution amp to provide feed to the director and other interested parties or to drive a Comtek transmitter. The 442 also hads three parallel output busses, allowing ou to send the camera feed from one pair and connect another to a stereo recorder to record in parallel in both devices.

The 302 can also use a breakaway to connect to the camera with the headphone return coming back to the mixer and is selectable as to whether the mixer's output or the camera return appears on the headphone output. Just not quite as convenient to connect multiple headphones or a Comtek but certainly still doable.
 
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Steve House said:
I would have second thoughts about the Mackie. Not that it would be a bad product, I own a Mackie for my desk at home. But that mixer is designed for FOH use, not recording, and you're paying for features such as special effects and the graphic equalizer on the outputs that you should never use for film/video recording. With the exception of high-pass filters on the mic inputs and perhaps a subtle touch on channel equalizers to smooth out "problem" voices, the goal is to record the dialog, etc, as pristine as possible. Save everything else for the leisure of post-production. Any tinkering with the sound during recording is in there permanently and if you later decide that your "creativity" just didn't work, there's not much you can do to remove it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies Steve... I was thinking on a Mackie not for the EQ´s or FX´s, just for the mic pres qty, routing options and cue mix customizables. Of course, how do I power this units its a major problem.

I know a 442 isn't in your budget to buy but perhaps rent. Here's how to do the return with a 442 as the mixer. The mixer is connected to the camera with a "betacam breakaway snake." This feeds the mixer main outputs to the camera's inputs. The snake also has a 1/8 plug to pick up the camera headphone out and return it to the mixer (and also a 1/8 jack tap to allow the camera operator to monitor on his own phones). The mixer allows one to select whether to monitor the mixer output bus or the camera return in the headphones. Mixer also has two headphone outputs, the sound person plug into one, the other feeds to a headphone distribution amp to provide feed to the director and other interested parties or to drive a Comtek transmitter. The 442 also hads three parallel output busses, allowing ou to send the camera feed from one pair and connect another to a stereo recorder to record in parallel in both devices.

The 302 can also use a breakaway to connect to the camera with the headphone return coming back to the mixer and is selectable as to whether the mixer's output or the camera return appears on the headphone output. Just not quite as convenient to connect multiple headphones or a Comtek but certainly still doable.
Click to expand...

The breakaway cable is like the Peter Engh one? With the seven pin connector right?

Thanks for clarifying this routing issue.

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
nyquist-x said:
Thanks for the replies Steve... The breakaway cable is like the Peter Engh one? With the seven pin connector right?

Thanks for clarifying this routing issue.

Best Regards.
Fernando
Click to expand...

Similar - the one I use is the Remote Audio deluxe version for the 442. http://www.remoteaudio.com/cables_adapters/eng/ There are a variety of camera ends and mixer ends you can mix and match to configure different brands of mixer and camera and extension sections as well to give you more length. You'll notice there's also a mixer end section available for the SD 302.
 
I see, I´m thinking of builiding one for me with canare cables, neutrik and hirose 10 pin connectors, they don´t be easy to solder I guess.

This cables has any kind of special soldering? What about the ground?

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
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nyquist-x said:
I see, I´m thinking of builiding one for me with canare cables, neutrik and hirose 10 pin connectors, they don´t be easy to solder I guess.

This cables has any kind of special soldering? What about the ground?

Best Regards.
Fernando
Click to expand...

No special soldering except lots of it and little bitty fiddly bits. IMHO it's not worth the trivial cost savings to DIY, especially if you include the value of your time in the cost of DIY.
 
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nyquist-x said:
How can I send the camera return to the director?
Click to expand...

WHY do you need to send the camera return to the director?
If the director needs to hear the sound during shooting, then it doesn't need to be from the camera. (That's not to say that YOU as the sound guy shouldn't have some way of monitoring the camera.)

OTOH, if the director needs to hear sound for playback, then the issue is WHERE is s/he seeing the picture playback? Do they have to go to the camera and peer at the little viewfinder screen, or is some larger production monitor (or a more complex "video village") set up to monitor shooting (and playback). The point is that one needs to take into consideration what the picture monitoring will be so that the sound monitoring can be coordinated with it. Of course, if you could afford a wireless system like Comtek then it isn't the same issue. Consider also that you can have the production rent a Comtek system if they really need it.
 
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