Should "trying" really be encouraged?

[SPZ]

Innate talent *always* shows up on the first try. That's kind of the whole definition of it.

And what if you can't spot it? In other words, who are you to judge what's innate talent and whats not in a first try?

 

[Brian_Rice]

Just like music, it can be either. I had a LONG discussion with a friend recently about the artist and the entertainer. They can be one in the same, and they can be different. I have spent a lot of time with people that hate pop music because it isn't personal, gut wrenching, from the soul music. I told them, they didn't get it. That music wasn't there to be some cherished masterpiece of all time. It was there for entertainment value. It was there for dancing, not deep introspection.

Most of the people I know that are in the music industry and successful are not the musicians, they are the engineers behind the desk. They don't even make music anymore because they've been sucked into the business/entertainment side of it. I see this with people in videography or DJing as well. They start doing weddings for the money, which to them was really good, but then lose focus of what they really wanted to do. Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with being a wedding shooter or a DJ, I've known people who LOVE this work. It's the people that get caught up in the money more than their passion, and then, they are unhappy. I mention this because, again, there are all kinds of people in the industry at all different levels, and not all of it is for art.

Who cares if someone wants to do this for a living and they aren't good. *THIS* is the journey they are making. If they just quit now and listened to people who told them they sucked or never had a chance in the future, they'll always wonder if they kept at it longer, maybe they would have made it. I would NEVER want to put myself in that situation. It's like the old saying "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." People need to go through the journey to see for themselves. Even if they end up NOT being a filmmaker, they'll at least know what they don't want to do. They'll have at least learned a tremendous amount.

There is a BIG distinction between encouraging someone and not being honest with them. If someone is REALLY passionate about wanting to do something, and their work is not up to par, I'm not going to kick them when they are down. I am going to focus on ONE or TWO things they can improve on and talk with them about it. Each little piece is a learning experience. Sure, I might think their material is horrible beyond belief, but again, I'm not in their mind. A few simple concepts could turn them around.

Have you ever had an epiphany moment where all of a sudden something made complete sense that NEVER made sense before and completely changed the way you understood things? Something that was right in front of your face yet you failed to see it for a long time and now you've just made a huge leap in your ability? I've had MANY of these moments. I'm almost envious of the horrible filmmaker that they can experience this so easily with the help of others It's just a great feeling and all of a sudden opens you up to a whole new world in your endeavor. It's like leveling up!

And really, to me, it has no relevance if they want to do this as a career or a hobby. To me it is all about their passion in it. When you find someone who is eager for knowledge and you can share some great advice with them, to see them *get* your advice and make use of it, it's a great feeling.

I'd rather be poor and happy than rich and miserable, ANY day.

I think we just stumbled on the very core of this argument.

You care about people. That's the problem in all of this. People caring about people. That's where the encouragement comes from.

I also, probably to a lesser extent, also care about people.

My point is that you're probably going to help someone more by discouraging them than you will be encouraging them.

No one, ever in their life, if they are in pursuit of their true life's path, should need any encouragement to stay the course.

You're worried about their personal "journey" and ****. I'm not concerned with that. If we're talking art, I care whether or not what you create changes the hearts and minds of humanity and advances the species. If it doesn't I will probably COMPLETELY ENJOY IT (note the AVP comment above), but you get no respect or encouragement from me.

I think Buffy changed humanity and advanced the species. AVP, did not. Both are genre bits, both were made by about the same level of filmmaker. One matters. One doesn't. One person knew that what they were writing would matter and would change the culture, the other...I don't know what the hell he was thinking with AVP, but I know I enjoyed it!

 

[Brian_Rice]

And what if you can't spot it? In other words, who are you to judge what's innate talent and whats not in a first try?

You know, I can't really say. If you know you know. If you don't you don't.

The easiest way to understand whether or not you know is to experience a great peice of art that you dislike, and like a piece of art that is just god awful. Once you can accomplish doing this on a regular basis, you'll know. You'll be able to look at something and in an instant know whether or not the person should continue.

You'll just...know!

LOL I love like how much of an ass I'm sounding. But I'm not going to go on for ten days sugar-coating it. If you know, you know. That's it. Can't help you understand it any more than that. A technician can break down for you all the little tidbits, but in the end most people know. They might not be as in touch with it, but come on -- all those people watching Twilight are in complete and total awareness that the film sucks. But it doesn't matter because they *enjoy* it. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Also, let me point out that the *encouragement* business is a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS.

American Idol is in the encouragement business. Every single seminar you've ever seen infomercialed is in the encouragement business. That guy who wants to teach you creative writing online? Encouragement business.

Hell, even crowdfunding can be an encourgement engagement!

Politics -- Man, if politics are not in the encouragement business, I don't know who is.

People take this notion of "YOU CAN DO IT!" and manipulate people into thinking that they actually *can* do it.

The place that people *should* be starting out in life is, "NO YOU CANNOT DO IT!"

I was brought up to believe that I cannot accomplish anything in life. One of the results of that is living in complete and total accountability every single moment of my existence. Once you become 100% accountable to every single moment of your life, only then do you find real freedom. But how can a person find personal accountability or even their true life's path if everywhere they turn everything around them is *encouraging* them to be Kim Kardashian or the next American Idol or Tom Cruise or Michael Bay? And even worse, people are being made to believe that if they *aren't* on Jersey Shore, their lives have less meaning.

This is the danger of encouragement. It's been too warped and twisted so I think we need to just get rid of it altogether until the world learns how to better behave.

 

[Doc Bernard]

I am going to post here, instead of editing my original post.

There are a lot of good points floating in this thread about creativeness and natural talent. Some of us are blessed with it, others are not.

But, there is a saying that I feel needs to be said: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It was alluded to that Michael Bay was a hack film-maker in an earlier post. But I like his work as well. So who is to say I am wrong? There are a lot of people that like his work. There are a lot of people who don't. Who is right? Is there a single person we should listen to in the Great Hall of Film Judgment? Of course not.

So, discouraging people just on the basis of your own experience seems a bit presumptuous to me. Unless a person thinks they possess psychic abilities, they do not know what future a person has.

It is not for me to discourage someone from trying to express themselves, or even pursuing a career in film-making, if that is what they want to do. Even if what they use as their calling card is something I don't like. So what if the short they made was "crap", in my opinion. There is a lot of that in the movie theaters now. But again, this is my opinion, because that which I think is crap, has people going to see it everyday and people that says it was great.

I just think the whole idea of telling people "you don't have what it takes" is an attempt to elevate themselves to a lofty position of "film-making savant". When clearly, every person has their own sense of what they like and don't like.

My set of standards will not be your set of standards, and visa versa. Something I see promise in, you may not. Does that mean either of us are any less experienced in film-making? I don't know what you have been involved in, but I know what I have been doing. So, in my eyes, using your criteria, I am a much more experienced person, and now I can sit in judgment of you.

Would I do this? No. Because I also know that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What I may not like, others may love. I am not the penultimate judge of what is considered good and what isn't. I can only speak to what I like and dislike. My opinion is no greater or lesser than your own. And thinking you have the ability to recognize "innate ability" is a tad bit egotistical. You may be able to recognize abilities that resonate in you because of your abilities or experience, but that is no way a judge of what a person can do. And you will overlook those with a natural gift in areas that don't resonate with you.

 

[Batutta]

But how can a person find personal accountability or even their true life's path if everywhere they turn everything around them is *encouraging* them to be Kim Kardashian or the next American Idol or Tom Cruise or Michael Bay? And even worse, people are being made to believe that if they *aren't* on Jersey Shore, their lives have less meaning.

This is the danger of encouragement. It's been too warped and twisted so I think we need to just get rid of it altogether until the world learns how to better behave.

I'm not sure it's fair to lump Tom Cruise and Michael Bay in with Kim K. Even if one doesn't like their work, at least Tom Cruise and Michael Bay got where they are by genuine. hard earned achievements...People want to be famous these days but they don't want to get there through achievement, as it takes too long. It takes too much "trying".

 

[Brian_Rice]

I am going to post here, instead of editing my original post.

There are a lot of good points floating in this thread about creativeness and natural talent. Some of us are blessed with it, others are not.

But, there is a saying that I feel needs to be said: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It was alluded to that Michael Bay was a hack film-maker in an earlier post. But I like his work as well. So who is to say I am wrong? There are a lot of people that like his work.

So, discouraging people just on the basis of your own experience seems a bit presumptuous to me. Unless a person thinks they possess psychic abilities, they do not know what future a person has.

It is not for me to discourage someone from trying to express themselves, or even pursuing a career in film-making, if that is what they want to do. Even if what they use as their calling card is something I don't like. So what if the short they made was "crap", in my opinion. There is a lot of that in the movie theaters now. But again, this is my opinion, because that which I think is crap, has people going to see it everyday and people that says it was great.

I just think the whole idea of telling people "you don't have what it takes" is an attempt to elevate themselves to a lofty position of "film-making savant". When clearly, every person has their own sense of what they like and don't like.

My set of standards will not be your set of standards, and visa versa. Something I see promise in, you may not. Does that mean either of us are any less experienced in film-making? I don't know what you have been involved in, but I know what I have been doing. So, in my eyes, using your criteria, I am a much more experienced person, and now I can sit in judgment of you.

Would I do this? No. Because I also know that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What I may not like, others may love. I am not the penultimate judge of what is considered good and what isn't. I can only speak to what I like and dislike.

But don't you think this is what's turning the world into the one we have today? Speaking soley in entertainement terms.

The problem is that nowadays everyone thinks liking something is the same thing as it being good and disliking something means it's bad. Liking and disliking something have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not what's being shown is adding anything meaningful to the human experience.

Also, everyone thinks all opinions are valid. They're not. People used to know and respect this. But now no one respects anything because, as I said before, the internet has turned everyone into equals. We're not equals. Everyone thinks that everyone should be encouraged to do whatever pops into their brain. They should not. They should be discouraged. By discouraging people it aids them in finding where their true passion lies.

We used to be a people built on discouragement and respect of authority. I see none of that now.

 

[Batutta]

I think your question has provoked much interesting discussion Brian, but as an unqualified statement, I don't think anyone is going to agree with you. Trying should always be encouraged. More people should try to get things right, not less. What people don't need is dishonest praise and withholding real, constructive criticism for fear of hurting their ego.

 

[Doc Bernard]

But don't you think this is what's turning the world into the one we have today? Speaking soley in entertainement terms.

The problem is that nowadays everyone thinks liking something is the same thing as it being good and disliking something means it's bad. Liking and disliking something have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not what's being shown is adding anything meaningful to the human experience.

Also, everyone thinks all opinions are valid. They're not. People used to know and respect this. But now no one respects anything because, as I said before, the internet has turned everyone into equals. We're not equals. Everyone thinks that everyone should be encouraged to do whatever pops into their brain. They should not. They should be discouraged. By discouraging people it aids them in finding where their true passion lies.

We used to be a people built on discouragement and respect of authority. I see none of that now.

Here is where I think the disconnect is occurring: who is the person to say that? Whose opinion, then, is valid? And who determines that?

Liking and good are the same in the eyes of the person saying it is good. Same with not liking and bad. Some people's opinion carry more weight than others, true. But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the only opinion that really matters is mine. Not yours, not anyone else's. And that can be said for anyone, their own opinion is all that really matters.

As to what we once were, yeah, we had a tighter grasp on who were the leaders in the fields, but that was because communication was not "see it right now".

 

[Brian_Rice]

I think your question has provoked much interesting discussion Brian, but as an unqualified statement, I don't think anyone is going to agree with you. Trying should always be encouraged. More people should try to get things right, not less. What people don't need is dishonest praise and withholding real, constructive criticism for fear of hurting their ego.

What thread have you been reading? I think most people have agreed that encouraging people with zero talent and ability is a bad idea as it's encouraging them to continue down a reckless and failed path.

I would not encourage a blind, mentally deformed child to juggle knives if they were terrible at juggling knives, nor would I encourage someone with no discernable talent or ability for their chosen craft to journey forward on an obviously jagged and dangerous existence for which they're ill prepared and have no business venturing down.

Again, the more this conversation has gone on, the more I've realized that filmmaking is much more mechanical than it is an art form. The idea of "But if they keep learning they can compensate for lack of innate talent" pretty much seals the deal on that argument.

But still, as a general premise, discouraging people will always be the most helpful and kind thing you can do for them.

 

[Zak Forsman]

What thread have you been reading? I think most people have agreed that encouraging people with zero talent and ability is a bad idea as it's encouraging them to continue down a reckless and failed path.

Then, I would encourage you to read it again.