GH2 Should I keep my RED ONE MX?

Good luck, you might need it : )

I don't think I'd be brave enough to go at it with an R1 alone, way to many pitfalls for me hehe. I have no doubt that it's probably gonna look pretty darn amazing though. Who knows, maybe as you are just getting started a BMC will finally be there to greet you.
 
Best wishes to you on your project Jaime. Just give it your best no matter how difficult it seems and how long it takes. Pa'lante mi hermano, que si se puede!
 
A few other areas where the R1 has an advantage:

1) Kind of a compromise, but you can shoot slighter wider and essentially have more than one shot b/c you
can crop in post to 1080. You'll have to find a happy middle ground in terms of depth of field, though. (e.g. shallow for ECU
or CU or less so for 2-shots, etc.)

2) Applying visual effects on your 4k red footage will be **WAY** better than on GH2 footage.

3) flexibility in frame rates. Being able to use various Frame rates, up to 120 is a big bonus.
 
Jaime Valles said:
Thank you all for the really great advice. I'm glad we can have a serious discussion without the thread degenerating into a "how can you compare X camera to Y camera if they're not even in the same price league" or "it's not the camera that counts it's the story" type debates. Believe me, I'm the first one to say that a RED camera won't make a good movie out of a bad script, any more than any other camera can save bad acting, dialogue, lighting or post-production. But I already have the script (which I've been working on heavily for the past year) and I'm very happy with it. The cast, crew, and almost all the other equipment will be exactly the same regardless of which camera I use, so now we need only discuss the technical elements of shooting with the R1 vs the GH2.

The R1 is not a camera I purchased with the intent of hiring it out to other projects or to rent out. This was to shoot a self-financed, low-budget indie feature. I'll be doing the editing on my home computer, whether it's shot on a GH2 or on the R1. Nobody except me will be waiting on the finished film (there are no clients or investors involved) so it doesn't really scare me if post takes longer with RAW than with H.264 footage. The actual shoot may take longer, because of the size of the RED rig compared to the GH2, but as Kholi said, I'll need more grip equipment with the GH2 to combat the limited dynamic range of the camera, so I kind of think it's a wash. And as Paul Hudson wrote, I have a lot more flexibility in post when shooting Redcode Raw than H.264.

As far as the lens situation goes... I have a Nikon 50mm f/1.4 and a standard 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens for now. They both look great, actually, but they don't have the character of the Voigtlander, Canon FD and SLR Magic lenses I was using with the GH2. That's why I referred to them as "cheapo Nikon lenses." Not because they don't produce good, sharp images, but because they're not as interesting, at least to my eye. But I'm starting to feel that I can overcome the blandness of those Nikon lenses with good post coloring techniques.

As far as the 4K vs 1080p thing... Well, I made my first feature film on a DVX100 on MiniDV (the link is in my signature). The footage looked great, at the time. Good enough, in fact, that HBO decided to acquire our little movie and put it up on their channels and on DVD. We were ecstatic, and very proud. However, distributors nowadays insist on 1080p masters, and they won't even touch our MiniDV feature with a 10 foot pole. That's why I think want to shoot this one in 4K. We've gotten burned because of shooting SD in an increasingly HD world, and I fear the same will happen once we move to 4K. It won't be this year, or maybe even in 3 years, but it's coming, and I want to be ready for it.

So, after reading all your excellent thoughts on the matter, and in the course of writing this lengthy reply, I feel like I'll stick with my gut reaction and shoot it with the RED ONE MX. My biggest obstacle right now is fear. Fear that I don't know the camera nearly as well as I know my GH2. But I'll learn, dammit. I'm just going to have to suck it up and take it like a man. :evil:

As soon as I'm able to talk more about the project (which is very cool, I promise) I'll post more stuff here. Until then, I thank you all sincerely for your invaluable time and expertise.
Click to expand...


Sd is different than HD, very very different.... Also Many great Movies recently released have been shot on 1080p. 1080p is here to stay for a long long time.... Regarding RED, I work with it all the time editing videos and I can tell you for a fact it's not as 'Amazing' as you might think. Honestly it really depends on who shoots with it. I've worked on RED projects that had so much noise and poor lighting it took me weeks to save, then I worked on footage shot on GH2 which looked perfect.

*Curveball

I will say though having a great DP and a project shot on 5k Red Epic will look better than anything shot on a GH2, but you need the right team. If you have the right script, team and overall talent then shoot on the RED it will look a lot better than GH2.
 
As a professional photographer that has been working with raw for 8 years, I would recommend you to have some solid knowledge of raw workflow and correction. It is not the end all and be all of image quality if you don't know how to use it. In fact its main advantage, which is flexibility, can be the worst problem because a lot of people will abuse of this. If the color science is not right from the start it can be very hard to get pleasing to good result without some good color correction skill. The blackmagic seems to have a very good starting point but the red does seem to be more complicated. That is why you hear such conflicting report about skin tone etc. People always point out Hollywood production as example of great work with camera X or Y. But you can't translate the amount of skill from the filming crew to the post people down to a small indie production. So you have both camera, just test, test, test in the same condition both of them and see the advantage and disadvantage of both. Do at least one full day shooting trial and see the setting time etc.

The 4k thing is a little overblown. There was a huge difference between mini DV SD and full HD 1080p. There will be only a subtle difference between 2k/1080p to 4k. Until now 99% of people are watching movies on the big screen at 1080/2k resolution and no one is complaining. It is not as if we humans being are going to grow some super telephoto eyes like eagles in the next decade unless Steve Austin bionic eyes transplant are on sale at the supermarket. I am sure for the 100 Anniversary of James bond in 50 years people will still be looking at Skyfall as a classic of the series without complaining about the 2k Alexa footage.

The obvious choice for me in your case would have been the BMC. But as you can see below the gh2 can be a very good camera in proper hands with those two films making the festivals. The gh3 could also be a good alternative with its better DR and better ergonomic to the gh2. I am just a little concern about the moire/aliasing, but I still can't figure it out because in some video it does not look good, in others it is just not there.



 
Last edited:
So, after reading all your excellent thoughts on the matter, and in the course of writing this lengthy reply, I feel like I'll stick with my gut reaction and shoot it with the RED ONE MX. My biggest obstacle right now is fear. Fear that I don't know the camera nearly as well as I know my GH2. But I'll learn, dammit. I'm just going to have to suck it up and take it like a man. :evil:

As soon as I'm able to talk more about the project (which is very cool, I promise) I'll post more stuff here. Until then, I thank you all sincerely for your invaluable time and expertise.
Click to expand...

With ambition like that, you will do just fine. Practice every chance you get, practice breaking it down, and setting it up for different shots, practice your post work flow, and in a short time, your gonna be whipping it around like any other guy that practiced with his gear. good luck on your feature, let us know when it's in the can, and when we can check it out:)
 
Go with the R1MX.

Pros:
* More dynamic range (this will help immensely if you don't have a full crew and tons of time at your locations)
* Much more forgiving of questionable/uncontrollable ambient light
* Significantly more post latitude
* More rugged and better machined camera (no flex when using a follow focus!!)
* Better ergonomics when kitted out
* More framerate options
* Better resolution (not that the GH2 is a slouch)
* Less noise
* Instills much more confidence across the board, in your actors, crew, investors, distributors, etc.
* 4k does afford you some extra leeway in stabilization, re-cropping, etc.
* More mass makes for better motion on the shoulder

Cons:
* Weight. The R1 is pretty damn heavy. Particularly if you're totally on your own.
* This thing takes eons to boot. EONS.
* Spinning platter hard drives (if you're not using SSDs) don't exactly inspire confidence
* You will need much bigger, more expensive support gear
* File sizes are bigger
* Chews through batteries

If you have a decently powerful desktop computer, your post hassles will be nil. If you're using Premiere, you can simply dump your footage to a hard drive and then drop it on the timeline. All of the RAW date is intact and easily manipulable within Adobe, and you should have no more issues cutting raw .r3ds (at 1/2 or 1/4 res) than you would with GH2 footage. The file sizes are manageable too. The last feature I did on R1MX at the highest data rate only came out to 3.5tb before backups.

The Red will unquestionably produce a better, more forgiving image that will afford you more options and flexibility in post. If you can deal with the weight, slow boot times, media and battery needs, and you have or can rent the requisite support gear, then I wouldn't hesitate to choose the Red. If you're trying to shoot really quickly or have to cram tons of setups into each day, or if you are shooting in a lot of tight spaces/need tons of mobility, then the GH2 would be the better bet. In the end if you do your job well, nobody would be able to tell which of the two cameras you used. The Red just gives you more wiggle room.
 
Last edited:
Kholi said:
You can always carry the GH2 with you for B-Cam/Inserts as well, nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

You absolutely should do this! One of my favorite tools is a bare GH2 with the Tokina 11-16. You can get fantastic footage from probably the smallest possible form-factor this way, and have an incredible freedom of movement. I'm really big on having the freedom to react while operating, and a scaled-down GH2 offers the smallest imaginable barrier between operator and image.
 
Danielvilliers said:
without complaining about the 2k Alexa footage.

The obvious choice for me in your case would have been the BMC. But as you can see below the gh2 can be a very good camera in proper hands with those two films making the festivals.
Click to expand...

Thats interesting. I didnt even know sc shot that on a gh2
 
Just for fun...how many "indie" budget type cameras are 4k? The C100.... nope, FS100...nope. F3....nope, BMC....nope, C300....nope, AF100...nope, AF100a...nope, EA50....nope, Ikonoskop....nope, D Bolex....nope, GH3....nope, 5DMK3....nope. In the $20,000 and under range that leaves- ummmmm- A Canon DSLR in 24P only, an upgrade for the FS700 and the Reds.
I'd say 4K hysteria is a little early...lol. Don't get me wrong, if you can do it...do it- but let's not talk crazy now.
 
stoneinapond said:
You mixed two thoughts......
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter if producers have no business making equipment decisions, the fact is that they do and are. I have had camera choice dictated to me many times for silly reasons such as hype, a "professional" look (talking about the physical look of the camera, not the image), impressing talent, etc. Sometimes people are reasonable and will listen to the professional opinion of the person they are hiring to shoot their project, but sometimes people just want to be placated. In a perfect world we wouldn't take gigs from people who aren't interested in collaboration or at least hearing the DPs opinion on what camera is best suited to a shoot, but in my world I don't want to have to take a serving job on the side. I take the jobs that I can get, and sometimes they're jobs from people who want to shoot RED because of the name. Wishful thinking and "being right" will not make those people or their mentality go away.
 
Last edited:
pulpfiction007 said:
Just for fun...how many "indie" budget type cameras are 4k? The C100.... nope, FS100...nope. F3....nope, BMC....nope, C300....nope, AF100...nope, AF100a...nope, EA50....nope, Ikonoskop....nope, D Bolex....nope, GH3....nope, 5DMK3....nope. In the $20,000 and under range that leaves- ummmmm- A Canon DSLR in 24P only, an upgrade for the FS700 and the Reds.
I'd say 4K hysteria is a little early...lol. Don't get me wrong, if you can do it...do it- but let's not talk crazy now.
Click to expand...

Scarlet and the new Sony f5 are 4K and might be "indie budget" price-wise if you're counting the f3 and the C300... just sayin' Oh, I see you said the Reds already
 
Danielvilliers said:
What or who do you mean SC?

edit: you surely mean Writer/Director Shane Carruth. You can see a resume here http://www.justinscheidt.com/about/resume/
Click to expand...


Holy sh**, did not know that this was shot on the GH2... ha, gotta admit that is pretty cool. I watched the preview last month and being a primer fan, have been anticipating pretty much anything done by Shane. This being done on the GH2 is just icing on the cake for me. I'm in Utah anyway, so no excuse not to go check this out at Sundance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top