Should I get another HMC150 or Wait to See What is Coming in March

J

jrod81

Veteran
Hey guys
If you have stumbled upon my other post you will see that I had some bad luck with an HMC that BH sent to me. They have agreed to refund my money and I am sending it back to them tomorrow. It took me forever to decide on the hmc150 but finally pulled the trigger on it- now that it is going back I am just wondering if I should wait and see if the first quarter is offering anything new in way of camcorders... The canon xa10 and xf100 have peaked my interest... will the hmc be better than either of those? Are there other cameras in this price range ($2000-$3500) to consider?
 
I think the HMC150 is better than the XA10 for usability for sure- it has more options for image adjustments, more choices for resolution, better manual controls, it's got 3 ccds rather than one CMOS, switchable NDs rather than just on or off, better sound configuration, etc. The XA10 has a better LCD, some cool touch features (I really like these on my HFS200) but it's more menu driven and is more in competition with the HMC40 IMO. The XF100 maybe a closer match, but I believe the HMC still has the lead in manual controls. In that price range...many of the cameras are older models - the XHa1s, the HMC150, the HVX200a, the HPX170. The Sony AX2000/NX5 are newer and the XF100/300 the newest. I would make a pros and cons list of the XF100 and HMC150, or wait until NAB. I do think the HMC is the best prosumer for the money right now though....you would pay a premium on the XFs because they're newer.
 
Well, we recently saw a $200 price drop on the 150 and it could slide down more next year; the AF100 is new, and seems poised to be a real go-to camera for all sorts of work. If micro 4/3 imager size makes it into the next level of acquisition (raw or something better than AVCHD) your AF100 purchases could be longer-term.

Maybe the bigger questions will hinge around the DSLR makers coming out with some kind of hybrid system, or Canon's next step after being blindsided by the 5D love out there... but DSLR and AVCHD do seem like things that will be looked back on as interim technologies. There's obviously a massive pent-up demand for a larger-sensor camera doing something like 2K or raw-ish at an AF100 price level.

DSLR mojo without compression and moire issues in a video-useable form factor (XLRs, scopes, ND, etc) that's suitable for keying, run & gun, corporate and artistic uses - with AF capability for Nikon, Panny & EOS, even with a useful 4/3 mount - would seem like a no-brainer were I a product development guy. Think back to what you wished for when shooting with a DVX and life is pretty good right now (much as we complain, we got a lot of wishes answered with all sorts of products in the same price range or lower). Someone's due to blow our dresses up, kind of wish they'd get on with it.
 
jrod81 said:
Hey guys
If you have stumbled upon my other post you will see that I had some bad luck with an HMC that BH sent to me. They have agreed to refund my money and I am sending it back to them tomorrow. It took me forever to decide on the hmc150 but finally pulled the trigger on it- now that it is going back I am just wondering if I should wait and see if the first quarter is offering anything new in way of camcorders... The canon xa10 and xf100 have peaked my interest... will the hmc be better than either of those? Are there other cameras in this price range ($2000-$3500) to consider?
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Correct me if I'm wrong -- but anything new announced at NAB won't usually hit the stores until four to six months later. New stuff will probably be announced -- but you may not be able to film with it until September or beyond.

Your question is actually interesting to me. I'm not in the market now and don't plan to be for some time (I was ready to pull the trigger on the AF-100, but didn't, and based on the Vimeo footage I'm seeing, I'm not yet regretting my decision) -- but for fun I pretended I was in the market and looked over the specs and available footage of the XF100.

The HMC150 is a solid camera with a learning curve. The new Premiere CS5 made the HMC150 into what it was intended to be. When you learn how to get the best out of an HMC150, it really can be impressive as heck. I am confident that there's more than one experienced HMC150 reader of this forum who will tell you that they can surpass the quality of most all of the AF-100 "test" footage on Vimeo with their 150 with the built in lens. After two years of rather tough use, mine is operating as well as it ever did. Combined with a 35mm lens adapter -- I get full frame 35mm images/depth on par with the 5Dm2. It's a good camera, a sensible camera, and if I were to buy another one today I'd be confident that I could live out two or so years and still be relatively competitive.

So, I like the HMC150 and, after two years of use, wouldn't feel bad about buying another.

All that being said -- the specs and the very limited footage I've seen from the xf100 -- look interesting as hell. The footage I've seen almost looks like a higher bandwidth EX1 or 3 with Canon color thrown in. Meaning, desaturate it a bit and throw on a lens adapter and you might be seriously rolling in a recording format that has already been embraced by television broadcasters (the BBC).

Pixel-peepers may argue that AVCCAM's mpeg-4 is absolutely on par or better than a 50Mbit mpeg-2 stream -- and they may be exactly right. Unfortunately this is irrelevant to the fact that the BBC has already given the green light to Canon's codec while being very, very, very silent about "AVCCAM."

So, without bashing the HMC150 -- a camera that has proved to be a very, very solid workhorse -- if it were me and I had your budget -- I'd take the gamble on that Canon XF100. Exactly like the HMC150, you can use it as it is for ENG style stuff, or stick it on an adapter if you need lenses (the new Redrock M3 is cheap and, on paper, looks interesting). No need for an external recorder -- you're already BBC approved.

So -- that's my two cents that cost you nothing. Good luck.
 
jrod81 said:
cool... thanks for the input man... cmos is not ideal huh? any other cameras to keep an eye on?
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Well CMOS imagers are the way of the future for now, they're cheaper to produce and from what I've read on our forum the gains in image processing/low light and less heat generation are more easily implemented on CMOS. That being said, I think that the 3ccds of the HMC150 are pretty great for low light (Barry has said it's just a bit less sensitive than the DVX100B but actually looks better in low light comparisons) and no rolling shutter or flash banding to worry about....there is vertical smear but I don't think with the HMC it's a big issue. Image quality on XF100 vs HMC150 might be a matter of preference as far as we know now - not a bunch of tests yet on the Canon.
 
jrod81 said:
would the Sony AX2000 be able to be edited natively in fcp? or is it avchd?
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It is AVCHD and it does not have the 720 modes of the HMC150. I believe you have to get the NX5 for that. I think either the HMC150 or the XF100 are truly the best buys below/at $3000. THe HMC40 and the XA10 are the best below/at $2000. AGMEDIA makes a good case...I'll bet the XF100 will be a great camera and it has Canon's latest/best stuff on it. Great Codec, good images so far., lots of choices for frame rates and resolutions...an excellent LCD (again I love the same screen on my HFS200) To me it would come down to the feel of each camera since I believe both the HMC150 and XF100 will produce high quality. So you've at least got to know the ergonomics of the HMC. Maybe pick up the XF100 and if you don't like it go back to the HMC150. AGmedia is also right about NAB - you'll have to wait for what's announced then wait for it to actually ship. By that time another announcement will be just around the corner and so on and so on. If you love shooting in the spring/summer as much as I do I'd be purchasing now!
Good luck with the choice and have fun.
 
CMOS imagers are the way of the future for now, they're cheaper to produce
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I question that.

"Costs are similar at the chip level. Early CMOS proponents claimed CMOS imagers would be much cheaper because they could be produced on the same high-volume wafer processing lines as mainstream logic or memory chips. This has not been the case." - DALSA
 
Jim Simon said:
I question that.

"Costs are similar at the chip level. Early CMOS proponents claimed CMOS imagers would be much cheaper because they could be produced on the same high-volume wafer processing lines as mainstream logic or memory chips. This has not been the case." - DALSA
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O.K. That may be true....for WHATEVER reason, CCDS are not being put in newly released prosumer video cameras anymore...that's the wave I'm talking about - could change I'm sure, hence the "for now" Latest prosumer cameras by manufacturer

VIDEO- Canon XF300 - CMOS Canon XF100 - CMOS Canon XA10 - CMOS SONY AX2000/NX5 - CMOS SONY NEX-VG10- CMOS PANASONIC AF100- CMOS PANASONIC HMC40/80 -CMOS
STILL- Canon 60D/T2i/7D- CMOS NIkon D7000 - CMOS Sony latest A series- CMOS

That's why I say if you want CCDs/no rolling shutter it's a good time to buy - particularly from PANNY- HMC150, HVX, HPX, etc. or a Canon XHA1s/XLH1. They ARE being phased out...and I guess others can say why better than me - IMAGE processing/lower operating temperature perhaps?
 
AGMedia said:
Combined with a 35mm lens adapter -- I get full frame 35mm images/depth on par with the 5Dm2
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That's quite a stretch. In terms of low-light situations, the Canon 5D blows the socks off the Panny. You're disabled right off the bat with the HMC's glass. And adding an adapter, plus another lens on top of that isn't going to help.
 
D.R. Gates said:
That's quite a stretch. In terms of low-light situations, the Canon 5D blows the socks off the Panny. You're disabled right off the bat with the HMC's glass. And adding an adapter, plus another lens on top of that isn't going to help.
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Okay, since you imagined "low-light" included in the statement -- I'll clarify.

When using an HMC-150 (or the XF300 or whatever) with a Letus Ultimate -- I get full frame 35mm lens coverage like any 35mm full frame sensor.

Because the lens adapter creates a "faux" full frame 35mm sensor -- I get the same focus control (shallow/deep) as a full frame 35mm sensor.

Nothing there is a "stretch," nothing there is inaccurate.
 
Hi, (comparing the video quality HMC150, JVC-HM100, Canon XF100, Sony HXR-NX5U (or AX2000) and the Canon 7D)

I was doing my own research on the Panasonic HMC150, VCHM100, Canon XF100, Sony HXR-NX5U (or AX2000) and the Canon 7D, and unfortunately not a perfect fit for any camcorder I found between the range of $2500 to $4000, and not really for any particular reason, just the greediness of the companies not to do a perfect product so you will need to buy the more expensive module.... I will explain:


HMC150 3x1/3 CCD and excellent optical stabilizer, AVCHD up to 24Mbps; Wide angle lens.
SonyHXR-NX5U 3x1/3 CMOS and excellent optical stabilizer, AVCHD up to 24Mbps; 20x zoom.

Those two video camera are very similar,the 1/3" sensor give a excellent picture but the compression (24Mbps, which is low) reduce the color clarity. This is not good for green screen, which I notice is harder to implement perfect result, from footage I saw, but good result can be obtained.
The optical stabilizer and the AVCHD coded give smooth movement of object at the frame; when you walk with the camera and optic stabilizer helps to have smoother frame and the ACVHD coded give a better movement of object in the frame....Nice.

HM100 3x1/4 CCD and fair optical stabilizer, MPEG2 up to 35Mbps; PAL and NTSC.
XF100 1x1/3 CMOS and optical stabilizer (don't know), MPEG2 up to 50Mpbs (4:2:2:).

The HM100 from reviews and footage I saw, don't have a good optical stabilizer. When walking with the camera you can easily see from the footage that the movement of the frame is rough. On the XF100 I did not see much information, but from only 1 video it looks quit good, and the movement of the frame is quite smooth. (But I am not sure).
MPEG2 coded (compare to ACVHD) don't give same smooth object movement in the frame, but the higher bit rate seems to compensate on this matter. so in over roll the movement of objects in the frame is very good.
The good think about those camcorder is the high bit rate. Color are very vivid, and this let you play better in the editing phase with different effects. Of course the green screen footage always look perfect even if the background, as the footage showed, was not set up so well.

Canon 7D 22.2mm X 17mm CMOs (almost 1 inch wide), optical stabilizer (?), ACVHD ~44Mbps; Manual focus at filming.

funny, the footage I saw with the 7D are amazing. not comfortable to use as it is design to be an SLR, but proof that with the ACVHD coded you can get excellent color and it is only a matter of bps. Green screen performance is excellent. Movement of object is excellent, but I am not sure if walking with this camera is good, cause all footage was filmed on tripod. So I don't have any info on the optical stabilizer, if any?

In conclusion, It is simple as, if the HMC150 or HXR-NX5U increased the bit rate for 35Mbp or 50Mbps; charge me $500 more and I will be very very happy. or if the JVC will add a better lens and a optical stabilizer. With the Canon xf100, only 1 CMOS, which I am still don't feel comfortable with.

If anybody have more information or care to argue or agree, please let me know.

Or more important, if anybody found the perfect camcorder, with high bit rate, let me know.

Cheers
Gil
 
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The Canon 7D doesn't have built-in optical stabilizer. You need to use a lens that has it. They are Canon IS lenses.

The Canon codec is not really an AVCHD codec like the HMC150's codec. It's a H.264 codec wrapped in a .mov

From a Barry's post:

AVCCAM is a brand name of AVCHD used in a professional camcorder. If it says AVCCAM it means that it's AVCHD on a camera from Panasonic's professional broadcast division. It also means that it has the highest-quality PH mode.

.mov is a file wrapper. It, in and of itself, doesn't mean anything as far as quality goes. The Canon's particular implementation of h.264 is a weak implementation, it's the same as the GH1's AVCHD with only an IPPPPPPP GoP, but Canon overcomes a lot of that limitation by throwing a lot of bandwidth at the problem; the 7D uses 50 megabits, which is about 3x as much as the GH1's 17mbps.

But you can't compare megabits without comparing everything else. The PH mode of AVCCAM is only 21 megabits, whereas the Canon's is 50 megabits, but the AVCCAM PH mode is FAR superior to the Canon's 50 megabits. It's because the IBBPBBPBBP structure of PH mode is much more efficient than the Canon's IPPPPPP structure.
 
gilcos28 said:
funny, the footage I saw with the 7D are amazing. not comfortable to use as it is design to be an SLR, but proof that with the ACVHD coded you can get excellent color and it is only a matter of bps. Green screen performance is excellent.
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The great image quality of the 7D has nothing to do with AVCHD and bitrate. It's just that everything is done right before signal is sent into the encoder and let's hope Canon will come with a similar 7D based video camera (with proper moire filter) soon. I love the 7D image but shoot DSLR like with GH2 and recently bought a HMC150.
 
Gladiator said:
Has anyone heard any rumors about any new Panasonic camcorders at NAB 2011? Thanks!
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Not really. There are usually some announcements, but they didn't announce anything new in their pre-NAB press releases. Here's the thing though -- even if they do "announce" something new, you wouldn't likely be able to buy it for several months or longer. The AF100 was "announced" at NAB, and came available for sale in December. Same with the HPX170/HMC150, they were announced at NAB and delivered in September/October.

Now, sometimes they do announce cameras that will be ready at NAB, but -- in those cases, they announce beforehand. Like the HPX300, that was announced as being available at NAB, but it was announced in February.

I guess what I'm saying is -- whether there's something new announced or not, there won't be anything new *that you can buy* anytime soon. If there was, they'd already have announced it! :thumbsup:
 
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