Should I get an external recorder vs. Rode VMP?

M

mrmarks

Active member
Hi guys, I would like to get some inputs on whether I should get an external recorder, e.g. Zoom H4n or Tascam DR100, instead of a Rode Videomic Pro? The external recorder pricing is slightly higher and worth considering for future recordings with xlr mics. My questions are:

1) Can I hook up the external recorder to the mic input of my Canon 5D2? Will the built-in mics in the external recorders give me better sound quality than the rode vmp?
2) Is there any horseshoe support and damper for the external recorder?

Thanks!
 
Why would you send the audio from the recorder into the 5d? I have both (h4n + VM Pro), and I think the audio quality is better on the h4 mics. If I had to choose, id go with the recorder. With the VM Pro you are stuck at the quaiity of that mic. Thats it. with the recorder, you have equal or better mics, but now you can build your kit from that with a good shotgun mic, mixer... etc. instead of spending a $150 on the pro, then if you want to move up on audio quality, buy a recorder etc.
 
Hi Ryan, thanks for your response. I could use the 5D2 built-in mic as a reference but I was wondering if the H4n could be used as an input mic to the 5D2, as well as in parallel recording the sound into the SD card for audio processing later?
 
You can just sync the audio later. The whole purpose of using an external is that 1: you dont pick up "operational" sounds from the camera, 2: You can place the recorder in a more optimal location., 3: You can get direct input from the DJ, or sound guy if your covering an event.

The purpose of a Ex-Camera mic, is more for Run and Gun situations, where you dont have much time to setup. Audio that enhances "Man on the street" type interviews. Eliminates "some" camera noises... but there are many pros and cons with using both.

Personally, I prefer external recorders, as I stop my camera between takes, and loads of times the convinces of having a full recording of the entire event handy.

Look at the H1 or H2 Zoom recorders for something cheap, camera mountable, and great audio... in the Road price range.
 
Ryan-Guy said:
Why would you send the audio from the recorder into the 5d? I have both (h4n + VM Pro), and I think the audio quality is better on the h4 mics. If I had to choose, id go with the recorder
Click to expand...

I downloaded the H4n manual and it looks like it has a line output. I could tap the signal from here into the 5D2 mic input. In this case, I should be able to both record sound into both the H4n (high quality) and the 5D2 (as a reference)? The idea is to do away with the VMP and to invest in the H4n only. Will this work? Thanks
 
mrmarks said:
I downloaded the H4n manual and it looks like it has a line output. I could tap the signal from here into the 5D2 mic input. In this case, I should be able to both record sound into both the H4n (high quality) and the 5D2 (as a reference)? The idea is to do away with the VMP and to invest in the H4n only. Will this work? Thanks
Click to expand...
When connecting to a mic-level input, a line output needs to be padded down with an attenuator in order to avoid overload. IMHO, the mics on a handheld recorder are not a substitute for a shotgun mic and an on-camera shotgun is not a substitute for a properly boomed shotgun. Some situations - music, for example - you might want the stereo cardioids on the recorder. Other situations you'll want the mono directional mic of the camera-mounted shotgun. Neither one is the appropriate choice for human speech such as dramatic dialog, interviews, reporter standups, etc.
 
I'd recommend the DR-100 over the H4n for the following reasons:

The preamps are a little cleaner.
The line output jack level is not affected by the headphone level control.
Dual battery system
Rotary controls for mic level.

I would also not consider using the internal microphones on either the H4n or DR-100 for dialog. Putting the recorder on a boom pole means not being able to adjust levels. Also, the quality of the on-board mics are kinda low.

Monitoring what the mic is doing is vital to good dialog capture. Make sure you address that when deciding on what gear you'll buy first.

No recorder is going to make a bad mic sound good. From a sound engineering standpoint, we start at the source, and work our way back to the recorder. Which means: voice-environment-microphone position-microphone selection-cabling-preamp-recorder. Since voice and environment are variables and microphone position is about technique, the first purchase decision in the chain is microphone. In the case of microphone purchase, it's a buy once, cry once situation, and unlike camera gear (but similar to quality lens), you'll find plenty of 20+ year old microphones still being used on set. My Sennheiser ME-80/K3 is at least 25 years old and still sees duty nearly every day on set. Consider the recorder like you'd consider a camera body. How many 20 year old camera bodies are still being used?
 
gpforet, thanks for pointing out the good points of the DR-100. I am considering it now. Do you know which line-to-mic attenuated cable is suitable for the DR-100 and 5D2?
 
Not sure about the cable but what's the point of cabling the recorder to the camera? It really doesn't buy you anything. The camera audio circuitry is below the quality of the DR-100, which you'll be using to record with, so why bother with a camera feed only to discard the camera audio track in post? Let the camera capture sound from the built-in mic, and use that, as well as slate, for reference sync.

mrmarks said:
gpforet, thanks for pointing out the good points of the DR-100. I am considering it now. Do you know which line-to-mic attenuated cable is suitable for the DR-100 and 5D2?
Click to expand...
 
mrmarks,

Your not listening to some good advice here. The mics on the portable recorders are not going to solve many of your problems.

The built in mic has three big problems right off the bat. It's way too wide, it's way too close to the camera, it's way too far away from what you want to record.
A camera mounted pocket recorder has those same problems. You will get cleaner unusable recordings but they will still be unusable.

The cable you need probably also needs to block power from the camera, maybe not but most 1/8" mic ins have something called "plug-in power" and that can inject noise in to your recordings. But a pocket recorder with out an external shotgun or hyper is not at all a good for recording dialog.

The reason people are fairly insistent on that point is that quite a few of us do post and have had to deal with production that a new filmmaker recorded on a H4n and the like with out a boom mic. It ranges for barely salvageable to completely unusable. So we want to be very clear on this so when you come back and want to know how come your sound is full of camera noise and it's very echoey and you have to crank it to hear the actors but then it's awash with noise, we can point you back here.

What usually happens is you get this awful sound and either complain that everyone said it would work, or that the recorder is a POS because it sounds bad. And then they ask how to fix it to sound like a big budget film. The hard truth is that although I do post mostly, the most important point in quality dialog tracks is the recordings done during production. If you only have a few $ spend them on the best production sound you can get. You can spend years on post sound if you want to. You can even switch and have a new person completely redo your post sound later when you have $$$. But whatever you captured in production is all you got from the set. If it's crap then that is what you have and no amount of post work will fix it.

ADR does not fix anything. It's a new film, it might be close but it's not what you shot. It's a compromise of last resort, unless it was a style choice from the start.
You didn't mention ADR but that is usually the next thing that pops up, "I'm going to do X and then just ADR if it doesn't work out".

So think back from the end. What do you want to end up with? Then get the things that will get you closest to that goal. I don't know your goal but I highly doubt that a camera mounted pocket recorder is moving you in the right direction.
 
Noiz2, thanks for your great inputs and for pointing me in the right direction! Is there a reasonable XLR shotgun mic (mid-range budget) ?
 
Mid range would be something like a Rode NTG-3 at around $700.00. Entry level is something like a Rode NTG-1 or 2 at around $200-$300, and top shelf is something like the Shoeps CMIT at a little over $2,000. These are just examples of shotguns, which are typically for outdoor use. Indoors most prefer to use a hyper-cardioid. the price points from low to high are about the same for hypers. What's reasonable to me as a sound professional may be out of reach of a hobbyist filmmaker.

As important, if not more so, is the proper use of shotgun and hypers. Putting a Shoeps CMIT on top of the camera 10' from the talent will still result in crap. The shotgun/hyper needs to be within 18" or so from the talent, and aimed just below the mouth. Anything further and the quality deminishes. While lavs can and are used for wider shots where the boom cannot get in close enough, I've yet to find a lav that sounds as rich as a boom. And unless your talent is stationary, a lav usually means wireless, so you're back to $800 or so for a wireless set and a quality lav mic and that's one per actor.

It's quite easy for a location sound mixer to be carrying $15,000 or more in their bag to support 4 channels of wireless, a couple of shotguns and hypers, mixer, and multi-track recorder and $25,000 is not an outragous amount to spend on a production sound kit if you include IFB and video village feeds.

There are the tools of the trade, and the craftsmanship needed to extract the most potential from the tools. Sacrifice one or the other, and the result is dininished.

mrmarks said:
Noiz2, thanks for your great inputs and for pointing me in the right direction! Is there a reasonable XLR shotgun mic (mid-range budget) ?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks gpforet. The Rode NTG-2 might be a good start for me. I believe it has a XLR connector that plugs into the external recorder, so I don't need an XLR adapter?
 
gpforet said:
...what's the point of cabling the recorder to the camera? It really doesn't buy you anything. The camera audio circuitry is below the quality of the DR-100, which you'll be using to record with, so why bother with a camera feed only to discard the camera audio track in post? Let the camera capture sound from the built-in mic, and use that, as well as slate, for reference sync.
Click to expand...

People are getting three basic things from these Sescom-types of cables:

1) They turn a DR100 or an H4n-style recorder into a Beachtek-style XLR adapter for their camera, allowing them to use XLR mics and phantom power

2) They enable the user to record two copies of the same audio - one in the camera, and a higher resolution copy in the recorder

3) They enable HDSLR shooters to actually monitor the audio from the recorder during the shoot

The thing I like about Sescom cables is that they make it possible to do a double-system shoot with good sound, and if the audio from the camera sounds decent, you don't have to bother syncing the external audio in post. This is really handy for non-important work. Obviously, if you're doing a serious shoot, you're going to want the better sound.
 
In terms of audio recording quality, as time has tested: Sony PCM M10 >> H4n and DR 100 > H4n. For $300 or less, M10 seems now widely regarded as the best audio recorder at the time. The only major disadvantage of using M10 instead of H4n or DR 100 is that it can't directly connect to a microphone that requires external phantom power. However, if you use VMP or Rode NTG-2, that's not a real issue at all.

mrmarks said:
Will the built-in mics in the external recorders give me better sound quality than the rode vmp?
Click to expand...

For recording a voice or dialogue, I bet H4n's built-in mics aren't as good as VMP. Not sure about DR-100's built-in mics. At least on paper, however, M10's built-in mics (omnidirectional only) is more sensitive and less noisy than VMP => therefore better in audio quality.

Here are some official specs:

- Sony M10's built-in mics: sensitivity = -33 dB /PA @1KHz (typical), noise < 17 dBA, max input = 123 db SPL (typical)
- Rode VideoMic Pro: sensitivity = -38 dB /PA @1KHz, noise = 20 dBA, max input = 134 db SPL
- Rode VideoMic: sensitivity = -38, noise = 20, max input = 134 SPL
- Rode NTG-2: - 36, 18, 131
- Rode NTG-3: -30, 13, 130
- Rode NT4/NT5 (cardioid caps): -38, noise < 16, 143
- AT 4053b (hyper cap): -34, noise = 16, 145 (or 155 with pad)
- Rode NT 2000: -36, noise = 7, 147 (up to 157 with padding)

There seems to be a consensus: M10's internal mics are as good as money can buy (see http://bartus.org/akustyk/PCMM10/index.php for some extra comments).
 
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