Shooting with HMC150 +Canon 7D Questions!

K

kpprobst

Member
Hello everyone,

I just recently obtained an HMC150 and I am still fiddling around with it trying to get the best picture I can from it. I've had a lot of documentary shooting experience with it at school this past year, but at the end of the summer I will be shooting a full length movie with the 150 and the 7D.

So I have some questions for you guys that I hope you can help me out with.

1.) We are going to shoot the movie in 24p to get the film look, but should we both be shooting in 1080p/24p and output at 720p for DVD etc.? I hear a lot about how HMC150 doesn't perform at it's best in 1080, but shooting in it and downscaling to 720 is a good idea.

2.) I am assuming we will be using the 7D as our main camera because it has the shallow depth of field for the cinematic look, but where is the HMC going to be a choice option over the 7D in our film? I'm assuming it's going to be used for low-light situations, handheld, and maybe establishing shots (for wide-angle)? Is there anything else I'm missing here? Or does anyone have suggestions?

3.) I'm still trying to find the best scene file to use when shooting the full-length. As of right now, I'm using Barry's moderate settings for the filmlike look which is:

Detail level: -1
V Detail level: 4
Detail Coring: -2
Chroma level: 0
Chroma phase: 2
Color temp: 0
Master Ped: -10
A.Iris level: 0
DRS: Off
Gamma: Cinelike D
Matrix: Cine-like

I'm enjoying this setting a lot, but I also found that in low-light/night there seems to be more grain than I am happy with. Although there is a lot of grain in film, I'm not sure if it is working well or not. I can shoot some stuff today and upload later as examples too.

So what scene file is going to work best do you guys think to match the picture of the Canon 7D?

4.) One more question, sorry. I am enjoying using 24p and the film scene file, but if I am going to be shooting some standard shorts and just some handheld work do you think I oughta go with a different scene file and frame rate?


Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I hope some of you can help me!

Thanks
 
Well I've shot both quite a bit and have embraced the differences more so than the similarities cause they handle most things completely differently. Your color balance for one will not ever be right on with both of the cameras, and how one handles the subleties over another. I think it's better to think of what you would use for what in what instance. I think the 7D would be best utlized on close-ups and shots where you want to defocus the background or to single out a paticular part of your scene. ... More than anything, try to get the best representation from each camera and then color correct in post....
 
kpprobst said:
Hello everyone,

I just recently obtained an HMC150 and I am still fiddling around with it trying to get the best picture I can from it. I've had a lot of documentary shooting experience with it at school this past year, but at the end of the summer I will be shooting a full length movie with the 150 and the 7D.

So I have some questions for you guys that I hope you can help me out with.

1.) We are going to shoot the movie in 24p to get the film look, but should we both be shooting in 1080p/24p and output at 720p for DVD etc.? I hear a lot about how HMC150 doesn't perform at it's best in 1080, but shooting in it and downscaling to 720 is a good idea.

2.) I am assuming we will be using the 7D as our main camera because it has the shallow depth of field for the cinematic look, but where is the HMC going to be a choice option over the 7D in our film? I'm assuming it's going to be used for low-light situations, handheld, and maybe establishing shots (for wide-angle)? Is there anything else I'm missing here? Or does anyone have suggestions?

3.) I'm still trying to find the best scene file to use when shooting the full-length. As of right now, I'm using Barry's moderate settings for the filmlike look which is:

Detail level: -1
V Detail level: 4
Detail Coring: -2
Chroma level: 0
Chroma phase: 2
Color temp: 0
Master Ped: -10
A.Iris level: 0
DRS: Off
Gamma: Cinelike D
Matrix: Cine-like

I'm enjoying this setting a lot, but I also found that in low-light/night there seems to be more grain than I am happy with. Although there is a lot of grain in film, I'm not sure if it is working well or not. I can shoot some stuff today and upload later as examples too.

So what scene file is going to work best do you guys think to match the picture of the Canon 7D?

4.) One more question, sorry. I am enjoying using 24p and the film scene file, but if I am going to be shooting some standard shorts and just some handheld work do you think I oughta go with a different scene file and frame rate?


Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I hope some of you can help me!

Thanks
Click to expand...



1) The HMC performs quite nicely at 1080p -- the main problems are associated with the lower frame rates -- 24 and 30. Shooting at 1080 and producing at 720 expands your framing options and allows you to fake some camera movements.

2) The HMC150 has 3 CCD sensors -- and as everything is going CMOS -- the value of the HMC150's CCD is increasing. Camera movement, especially on a stabilizer, is something you can do with your HMC150 that tends to be very less great with CMOS sensors. Also, obviously, depending on your lenses for the 7D -- the HMC150 is good for deep focus.

3) Use the default Cine-V ("F5" I think) on the HMC150 and the Philip Bloom setting on the 7D (Standard, minimum sharpness, minimum contrast, two ticks down on the saturation, at 1080/24p). Those two together aren't entirely perfect, but you can cut between those two (after the usual color correcting) and the regular person viewer won't know anything is going on.

Also, the default F5 "Cine-V" will be less noisy than the settings you posted.

4) Anything hand held -- anything -- should be shot with the HMC150 (back to the CCD thing). One advantage of the HMC150 is that you can shoot everything in 60P (at 720, obviously). This allows you to play with motion speed in post, and you can seamlessly encode to 24p for your final output.

Hope that's helpful. Good luck!
 
AGMedia said:
1) The HMC performs quite nicely at 1080p -- the main problems are associated with the lower frame rates -- 24 and 30. Shooting at 1080 and producing at 720 expands your framing options and allows you to fake some camera movements.

2) The HMC150 has 3 CCD sensors -- and as everything is going CMOS -- the value of the HMC150's CCD is increasing. Camera movement, especially on a stabilizer, is something you can do with your HMC150 that tends to be very less great with CMOS sensors. Also, obviously, depending on your lenses for the 7D -- the HMC150 is good for deep focus.

3) Use the default Cine-V ("F5" I think) on the HMC150 and the Philip Bloom setting on the 7D (Standard, minimum sharpness, minimum contrast, two ticks down on the saturation, at 1080/24p). Those two together aren't entirely perfect, but you can cut between those two (after the usual color correcting) and the regular person viewer won't know anything is going on.

Also, the default F5 "Cine-V" will be less noisy than the settings you posted.

4) Anything hand held -- anything -- should be shot with the HMC150 (back to the CCD thing). One advantage of the HMC150 is that you can shoot everything in 60P (at 720, obviously). This allows you to play with motion speed in post, and you can seamlessly encode to 24p for your final output.

Hope that's helpful. Good luck!
Click to expand...


3.) So you think just using the default setting will work best with Cine-V? No other adjustments in there? I know it makes a sharper contrast, but does that necessarily mean a higher contrast? Maybe I should turn down the master ped a little to help that out?

4.) I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure my question got answered the way I wanted to. Are you suggesting that I should be shooting my handhelds and shorts/freelance stuff in 60p and then output it in 24p?

Here's my biggest example for what I will be shooting next month: I am taking a family vacation to Alaska and I will be covering it as much as possible with my HMC. This is going to be a bunch of freelance footage on top of well composed shots of the Alaska scenery. What is going to be my best option to shoot in? 60p and convert to 24? 24p? Or even 30p? I did my documentary work in school in 30p and was satisfied. I don't think I like 60p for everything it seems too real.
 
kpprobst said:
3.) So you think just using the default setting will work best with Cine-V? No other adjustments in there? I know it makes a sharper contrast, but does that necessarily mean a higher contrast? Maybe I should turn down the master ped a little to help that out?

4.) I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure my question got answered the way I wanted to. Are you suggesting that I should be shooting my handhelds and shorts/freelance stuff in 60p and then output it in 24p?

Here's my biggest example for what I will be shooting next month: I am taking a family vacation to Alaska and I will be covering it as much as possible with my HMC. This is going to be a bunch of freelance footage on top of well composed shots of the Alaska scenery. What is going to be my best option to shoot in? 60p and convert to 24? 24p? Or even 30p? I did my documentary work in school in 30p and was satisfied. I don't think I like 60p for everything it seems too real.
Click to expand...


I've got another half hour to sit here in the studio -- so I'll answer. The bottom line is that's the free advice you get from an anonymous person on a forum. Factor it in as you like and make your choices.

3) Your Canon 7D is a contrasty camera. Even with the settings I previously posted (Philip Bloom's recommendations), the image has higher contrast than the HMC150's flattest scene file (Cine D). There are all sorts of 7D custom scene files that attempt to lower contrast (expand dynamic range) and they all seem to have various unpleasant side effects. On your HMC150, Cine-D has the broadest "dynamic range," but it's a noise convention -- really -- a dance party of noise holding some pagen festival on your images.

SO -- the default Cine-V creates a pleasing, lower noise image, and is contrasty enough to relatively fit in with your contrasty 7D footage.

The options here are almost infinite -- I'm simply sharing with you my experience -- and I can tell you that focus groups of regular people who have viewed drafts with those two kinds of footage mixed have never once said -- "Why does this look different from that?" In fact, slightly more professional clients have never said "Why does this look different from that?"

4) The shooting of everything in 60P is something relatively unique to AVCCAM, and sounds outrageous to traditional P2 users. There's also some confusion between NLE users regarding putting stuff on "timelines" relating to speed.

In Premiere Pro CS4.1 or CS5 -- you can stick essentially any kind of footage in to any kind of sequence ("timeline"). The speed of the footage is only effected if you "interpret footage" to a different frame rate.

This means that in Premiere Pro CS4/5 -- I can shoot everything in 60P -- change frame rates (speed) for only the things I want to slow down or speed up -- and then -- when everything is ready to be encoded -- I encode the final production at 23.976 resulting in perfect 24p video.

This is useful, big time, in the sense that you usually don't know when you're about to film something that would look awesome slowed down -- so if "everything" is filmed in 60P -- you have, in post, the ultimate creative flexibility.

So, you film in 60P, but you don't need to deliver anything in 60P.

One final note that has really made me really happy with the HMC150 over the past two or so months. Premiere Pro CS5 has a new upscale feature that seems to be -- amazing. (your right click on a clip in the timeline and select "Scale to frame" or whatever) This has allowed me to film in 60P, create slow motion with the 60P footage, and then upscale it to 1080P that looks so near perfect it's scary. If you understood what I just wrote -- you understand the HMC is becoming cooler.

Okay -- time for me to leave. I hope that's helpful to you as you make your decisions in your journeys. Good luck!
 
Thanks for taking the time to help me! I appreciate all of your feedback. This has helped.


One final question that you don't necessarily have to answer but someone else can:

Wouldn't shooting in 60p then delivering in 24p give me a less quality image than if I were to just originally shoot in 24p? Is the difference that big?
 
AGMedia,

You build confidence buddy! With everyone shooting with the 7d, I'm often tempted to get rid of my camera, adapter, and lenses, and buy 2 7Ds.. but I'm still sticking with it because I know it's a much superior camera in the long run.
 
MrSeth I totally feel you. I bought the Hmc used a few months ago and then really started taking notice of the 7D. I even had my camera up for sale, but at the last minute decided to hang on to it. Thanks to some new shoots, I've totally fallen in love with it again.

kpprobst I actually just shot alot of footage in 60p like Agmedia describes and it looks amazing when just dropped into a 24p timeline and not interpreted. No loss of quality at all (to my eyes at least). However, this was at 1/500 shutter speed and I haven't experimented with something lower as I usually stick with 24p for the slower shutter speeds.
 
MrSeth & Christer:

Selling your HMC150's to replace with 7D's would be one of those mistakes in which you spend weeks screaming "What the hell was I thinking?!?!?"

The 7D does some things very very well, but the moire/aliasing issue (even using all the tricks to avoid it) is a killer on the 7D for some images, and you've got all the CMOS skew/jello issues.

The 7D is an outstanding stills camera, and I'm getting great select motion footage from it on an indislider. For all other motion it's the 150/170 on a stabilizer, and for interviews or head shots it's the 150/170 plugged into the Letus with quality lenses. (for interviews it's always the HMC150 -- because I can have an up to twenty hour conversation with someone).

Regarding head shots and interviews -- the 7D is something of a disaster if the person is wearing clothing not approved by Canon engineers -- resulting in moire/aliasing that is so awful that you'd be an ass if you attempted to deliver it to a client.

If all of this is a hobby for you -- the 7D is a revolution. If this is your business -- there's no way the 7D replaces an HMC150.
 
AGMedia said:
If all of this is a hobby for you -- the 7D is a revolution. If this is your business -- there's no way the 7D replaces an HMC150.
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I agree with this.

As someone shooting mainly wedding videos, solo, and in the recent heatwave, it would have been suicide trying this with DSLRs.

Also FYI, the HMC-150 & 40 can handle baking in the 100F ambient and sun for an hour shooting an outdoor ceremony. The viewfinders start heat fading, but it still all works okay.
 
I just shot a short with the 7d and used my HMC-150 to record sound and shot some b-cam stuff just for the heck of it.

If you shoot the Canon Neutral and the HMC-150 to cine-v, the footage is definitely "cutable." Obviously, the 7d is sharper and gives much better bokeh, but for wide shots, the HMC holds its own. Unfotunately, my HMC was cranked up to a colorful scene setting, making matching shots a little tougher.
 
Totally agree that no DSLR will totally replace a video camera like the 150 in typical shooting situations. But in fully controlled situations the 7D with a few good lenses can really produce some amazing footage. If it were only video, I would only use the GH1 as my DSLR addition... but since i need to take (good) pictures from time to time - I gota have a 7D.

We shot this with the HMC150, 7D and GH1 - they are all easy enough to setup 'similar' scene files then do minor CC in post.

http://vimeo.com/12888638
 
I have both the T2i/550 and a 150. They are different tools for different jobs, nothing more nothing less. Cameras are tools, not religious icons. I've never seen a wood worker or plumber work entirely with one tool. Have you? So why are we any different?

Anyway, to get rid of a camera that can shoot with XLRs filtered through a field mixer or off a sound board for an hour at a time, to go with a camera that has severe limitations, let alone is an ergonomic nightmare, seems like tying one hand behind your back to express your ideas on video. Might as well sell both cameras!

I shoot most things at 1080/24 on the 150, as there was a bunch of posts by Barry G. early on that said that 720 was the sweet spot, but he reversed that some months later. I like having the full monte with 1080, and haven't noticed much difference between 720 and 1080, to be truthful. Maybe I'm missing it.

That being said, I find that I carry the T2i a lot more than the 150, simply because I can shoot easily everywhere, and make the choice for still or video. As others have said, it's like a video notebook. I don't agree that I 'always shoot handheld with the 150" as I find I can steady the T2i much easier with the addition of a flash bracket that I mount a cheap Azden mic onto just to get the mic off the camera. Sort of like a Halo Ring without the odd stares! For real sound, if needed, I record a separate track on a zoom, but usually, end up going back to the 150 for 'real' sound recordings. (check out my off the board recordings of a Choro Famoso concert on YouTube for an example).

I also don't understand the 'warm orange' cast you folks mention. I have not seen it. Crushed blacks can happen, and not just with Canon's DSLRs. All the stuff I've seen that Phil Bloom shot with that lower end Canon video camera (can't remember the number just now) had crushed blacks. And others shooting with those Canon smaller CMOS chips seem to get it too. But I've been careful to expose properly. Anyway, as I've posted before, here's a few comparisons of both .mov and .avi on the T2i, along with a not very scientific comparison of canon T2i and 150.

http://www.vimeo.com/12256123 (can't find any warm orange here...or am I missing it?)

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=5qwBi0kQt88&next=/my_videos
Sorry I didn't shoot more that night with the 150. It was getting dark fast and I was working alone.

And lastly , if you are still interested, here's my first "all day" run and gun using the T2i and the Azden mic. Not much crushed blacks, but they do show up, during the segment where we had the lowest light values. This was all hand held, with the little flash bracket. I think it's no different than hand holding my 150, maybe even bettter.
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=eKB8H5sLSKQ&next=/my_videos
 
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sorry for the wrong links, I seem to forget that with Youtube you have to get a link from them rather than use the default.. my bad.

I do try and set white balance before shooting.

The Oyster thing was a quickie that I didn't try too hard for perfection. A bit of jiggle now and then but the client loved that I was able to go along quickly. Grade me a B for the assignment. But I love these low budget fast shoots where the client is just happy to have you along, and loves whatever you do. Grateful for some exposure of their work.
 
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By the way Averan, I like your demo reel for G.G. Looks fresh and up to date. On the corporate thing, what did you do to add that grey affect to the inset?
 
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