Shooting in black & white

Well.... now I feel better that I actually shot in black and white... go me....

Ben, I'll be popping about town maybe we can meet up.
 
andyjar said:
Uh, guys?

When did it become acceptable to shoot in color and do black and white in post if you KNEW you were going to do it anyway?

You light for B&W very differently then you do for color. It means the makeup people, costume people, everyone has to adjust a bit knowing that it's about tone and not color.

I'm very confused that this is the norm. If you're gonna make it B&W in post, and you know 100% you are, then shoot B&W. It's a different way of filmmaking.
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First off the 'sensor' of the camera is always acquiring 'color'. Then in order to 'shoot camera B&W' you use the ideas about what is B&W that the engineers decided the camera should 'produce'.

If the B&W conversion is done in post, you can adjust the color components to 'match', in some sense, 'real(tm)' B&W materials, by adjusting how much of R, G, and B contribute to the final effect.

If this is done 'in camera' then about all you can do is live with the B&W 'color' response that the engineers have decided, and adjust levels/gamma.

I realize that most people don't think about the spectral response that real(tm) B&W film had, and so perhaps 'going with the camera' may seem better... But for all I know, the 'camera B&W', is just simply 'desaturation'... which to me has always left a 'less than' feeling for the result.

I would say something different if this was real(tm) Film, and the question was shooting B&W film negative material, then printing to B&W film output...

As for the other issues with shooting B&W, makeup, lighting... get a Wratten 90 filter... that's what one did in the days before 'instant feedback'... to 'see' the setup in monochrome before shooting the negative material... After a few years of looking at scenes with the Wratten filter, one does develop a sense of B&W...
 
If the B&W conversion is done in post, you can adjust the color components to 'match', in some sense, 'real(tm)' B&W materials, by adjusting how much of R, G, and B contribute to the final effect.

I'm actually going to be attempting this in post, I'll admit in the past I'd just use Sony Vegas Pro 9 and the preset B&W @ 100%, I will try to 'match' for my color for continuity sake so can you please elaborate on this RGB adjustment. BTW I have access to After Effects as well, which would you recommend for this? It will be intereeting to put the stock B&W preset next to a color corrected version to see any discrepencies between them!
 
BrianBrook said:
If the B&W conversion is done in post, you can adjust the color components to 'match', in some sense, 'real(tm)' B&W materials, by adjusting how much of R, G, and B contribute to the final effect.

I'm actually going to be attempting this in post, I'll admit in the past I'd just use Sony Vegas Pro 9 and the preset B&W @ 100%, I will try to 'match' for my color for continuity sake so can you please elaborate on this RGB adjustment. BTW I have access to After Effects as well, which would you recommend for this? It will be intereeting to put the stock B&W preset next to a color corrected version to see any discrepencies between them!
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After Effects has a 'channel mixer' filter. Here's the Adobe 'help' blurb on it.

http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/AfterEffects/8.0/help.html?content=WS3878526689cb91655866c1103a9d3c597-7bcb.html


Here's a 'still' example using the same function in Photoshop:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/bwfromcol.html

It gives the 'original color' image along with examples of the various 'mix' settings for the monochrome results.
 
The biggest thing I agree with is that you want to "see" black and white if you are shooting for black and white so is there a way to still shoot color but set the gh1's lcd to b&w? in case I decide to go the post b&w real(tm) way?
 
Blackout said:
The biggest thing I agree with is that you want to "see" black and white if you are shooting for black and white so is there a way to still shoot color but set the gh1's lcd to b&w? in case I decide to go the post b&w real(tm) way?
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The possibilities as I see it are: 1) using the 'monochrome' Wratten 90 filter... and if you get yourself a 'director's viewing lens', those items would give an air of 'pro-director'... 2) setting up an external monitor and 'desat' that display, or 3) taking a 'setup' clip in B&W mode... or something like that, until you learn to 'see B&W'... I don't think there's a setup mode for just the LCD display...

When I see the 'behind the scenes' material, most 'monitors' really don't look like the resulting 'film' look anyway... They seem to be used for framing, composition, exposure (although not too useful could show where 'more light is needed', or 'more screening' in a general way...), and the like. So, I think it is just one of those learning things to 'see' the result, no mater what your 'on set' indicators may display.

I think the really 'big' issue for shooting B&W for most people these days, is 1) examples... since the films people see most frequently in theaters are color, there are few examples of B&W, and fewer still of 'good' B&W, outside of classics, which aren't seen too frequently in 'real(tm)' theaters. 2) learning what 'colors' map to nearly the same 'grey' value... that's a biggy... as well as learning what values skin complexion map to.

Heck, just run a current 'color' movie through your fancy HDTV display, with saturation down... may be a useful exercise...
 
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You could set up a Dynamic or Smooth film setting in camera and switch over to one of these while lighting, just for reference?

I managed to produce some purple and rainbow moire patterns on a sofa, when shooting in Smooth B&W, so that's something to be wary of.
 
AdrianF said:
You could set up a Dynamic or Smooth film setting in camera and switch over to one of these while lighting, just for reference?

I managed to produce some purple and rainbow moire patterns on a sofa, when shooting in Smooth B&W, so that's something to be wary of.
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Just on the LCD or in the footage? I sometimes see rainbow moiré on the LCD but if I check the viewfinder, the footage, or even magnify the LCD it usually goes away.
 
No, this was in the footage. The shot had a fine checkered sofa in it. I thought it was just the LCD until I played back on a monitor. It's the only time I've seen it, but still something I'm wary of.
 
AdrianF said:
No, this was in the footage. The shot had a fine checkered sofa in it. I thought it was just the LCD until I played back on a monitor. It's the only time I've seen it, but still something I'm wary of.
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Ouch, even prehack my Gh1 handled a classroom that was basically a resolution test chart (that horrible carpet on the walls and everything) and with little lines on all the chairs...we took out a 5D and the room looked like a discotek.
 
Blackout said:
Well.... now I feel better that I actually shot in black and white... go me....

Ben, I'll be popping about town maybe we can meet up.
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Sounds cool. I am an hour upstate right now but I will be back in the city tomorrow and monday and some on tuesday.
 
Interesting thread.

Doesn't the B&W in-camera conversion happen pre-AVCHD encoding?
If so would we not (theoretically at least) get more bang-for-buck - aka contrast information for bit(rate) - by doing the B&W conversion in camera?

i.e. instead of grabbing a compressed AVCHD image and desaturating it, present the processors a B&W image to start with and get it to AVCHD-ise that?
If the latter I can see why it would give you a better image for post...
 
Phew!finder said:
Interesting thread.

Doesn't the B&W in-camera conversion happen pre-AVCHD encoding?
If so would we not (theoretically at least) get more bang-for-buck - aka contrast information for bit(rate) - by doing the B&W conversion in camera?

i.e. instead of grabbing a compressed AVCHD image and desaturating it, present the processors a B&W image to start with and get it to AVCHD-ise that?
If the latter I can see why it would give you a better image for post...
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It is a subtle thing, but sure, if desat+constrast 'works' for your application, and you have a customer/project that needs to be done 'tomorrow'... I'd probably do in camera B&W as well...

In this case, 'doing it in post' is not a 'fix up' for a bad, or unfortunate, choice during production, but on the same order as any form of color grading. In the 'real(tm)' film world, one does make a choice for color negative stock (who shoots on pure B&W film these days for a major motion picture... ok you can probably find a couple in the last 20 years...), that has certain characteristics... but even then, there is a post-production color grading pass to achieve the 'look' that the 'director' has in mind. But to me, the use of the in-camera B&W is not the same as 'real(tm)' film B&W... And by choosing it, you have essentially tossed a significant amount of information that could have been used in post.

If the camera did have 'B&W negative' options, where the engineers provided several different conversion formulas to 'match' B&W negative response, and it was done pre-AVCHD encode... sure... but I don't think that's what happens...

I'll give an example... you can with processing to B&W in post, simulate 'B&W filter' responses. Dial down 'red' to simulate a 'blue' filter... dial down 'blue' to simulate a 'red' filter... give a subtle effect that matches B&W response to using a 'yellow' filter... etc... That sort of option is 'gone' if the in-camera B&W option is used... In the case of 'high mountain', or 'hazy day', you may even be able to simulate a No. 25 red filter, and 'cut arial' haze on such a shot... One of these days I'll have the time to setup and test/demonstrate some of these ideas.

I'll make a concession... use the in-camera B&W as a training device to learn to 'see scene terms of 'values' rather than just 'color'... it may assist in analyzing lighting, and scene color scheme, so that later one can 'see B&W'...
 
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I shot this pre-hack in B&W straight from the camera and I didn't have to do anything to it in post. I found myself loving that kind of workflow. Quick. Easy. WYSIWYG.
 
Yeah. I had this conversation with the client and honestly... checking on a real monitor I was really happy with the camera's black and white look. I REALLY like dynamic mode and so did she but I figure I better shoot black and white smooth and I can choose how dynamic in post. Don't want to lose detail during the shoot. I know this is not going to film, just to youtube and possibly it might air on TV, but for the workflow and budget, I was very happy and glad just shooting black and white off the bat with the camera. It looked like how it was going to look and the only thing I would really have to toy with was contrast and brightness and gamma curve. In a couple scenes a got a little bit of banding.. but nothing the client would ever notice. We were shooting black and white smooth on two GH1s, and then between setups before we moved on we checked the footage on a big 1080p lcd. It all worked out well in the end except for the audio flub up.

I think I would just shoot black and white off the camera again but in the second video she wants to do the color pass effect in a few scenes where only the red comes through black and white.

Incidentally.... does anyone know the best way to do this vegas? Is there a color pass filter I haven't even looked yet. I am moving more and more away from premiere cs5 and more towards vegas on all projects it's just so much easier to use to me and I like its output better than cs5 media encoder. Although, for dvd and blu-ray authoring I use encore over DVD architect.
 
majikfraug said:
I shot this pre-hack in B&W straight from the camera and I didn't have to do anything to it in post. I found myself loving that kind of workflow. Quick. Easy. WYSIWYG.
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This was really pretty... I like my blacks a little blacker though... they were kinda gray here.
What lens/s?
 
Normally I like it more contrasty too, but for this I liked it smooth.
Lens was a cheap 25mm f1.4 macro only C-mount TV lens I got on eBay for about $20.
 
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