shooting a feature

L

lalugela

Active member
guys,
I'm considering shooting a feature on a thin budget (ie: what's left of my savings)...

I have an HMC 150 w/ a Letus Extreme already. But I'm wondering what your thoughts are in comparing this rig to the Canon Mark II? OR would it be worth my while to rent the RED?

thanks,
Max
 
don't compare. it will only cost you more money! ;)
you have a great camera AND a great adapter, go out and shoot already!
 
Before taking any advice, the advisers need more information about what you are going to do, how you are going to release it, are you going to have a crew, do you have a budget for rentals, what equipment do you have besides the cam and adapter such as lights and audio. The real thought is that the cam is only a small percentage of the entire production.

Yes you can make a quality production with the HMC, but whether you want to use it, or something else, depends on the bigger (motion) picture.

Best Regards,
Grant
 
Shoot with what you have. There are always reasons to look at what else is available, to see what is better about something else available, but the real skills are making the most of what you have. The HMC has lots of advantages over the 5D2, use the HMC to it's advantages and work around the rest.

Good luck with your shooting ....!
 
I would say just go and shoot. I just shot a shortfilm on the HMC and it proved to be a quite good camera, especially for skintones. I really love it. I think everything exept wide landscape shots are fine with the HMC, if landscapes are important parts of your storytelling you might borrow a Red or a 5D Mark II for these shots.

I am with ggrantly in the way that sound is a very important part of the movie. You will be a lot saver if you hire a good sound recordist and boom operator.

You dont necessarely need a big crew. There are some famous French directors whose entire crew wern't more than 12 people in the maximum on most parts of their shootings. Eric Rohmer sometimes worked with one cameraman, one sound recordist and one what he called "universal assistent" who worked as a production manager, lineproducer, directors assistent and focus puller (one person!!!). He used two fresnel lamps, one reflector and one on-camera light for most of his masterpieces, so its always possible to shoot great films with a minimum of equipment... good luck to you! :)
 
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The question is really, how do I spend $4,000-$10,000 on this feature?

Do I:
A. Shoot the feature on my current rig (HMC 150 w/ Letus on Nikons) buy a few more primes (only have a 50 mm) buy some cool lights (kinos), rent dolly, and miscellaneous...

B. Sell my HMC 150 w/ Letus and get a Mark II, lenses, lights, etc.

C. Rent RED, shoot weekends with thin lighting package on super fast pace.

Thanks everyone for the advice and support! I'm leaning more towards just going for it now that I see your confidence in the HMC. I really do feel that I can make it happen with a great story— I just don't want to be eliminated from festival chances/ broadcast chances just because of a technical thing.
 
A if you want the highest production quality.
B if you have time to deal with shipping + workflow adjustments + new-technical issues + learning curve shooting with a new camera (and a dslr to boot).
C if you're looking to challenge yourself and experiment with docu-minimalism.
 
Good lighting and sound are more important than the camera you are using, don't skimp on them, but rather hire a pro with the equipment to do the job. The MOST important part of the production is the story, and thankfully it doesn't cost anything to work on. I'd say stick to the HMC/Letus, maybe rent some good lenses for it, and hire a gaffer and sound man. You should already be comfortable with your own gear and post workflow and be able to work with the limitations and capabilities of both.
 
Option A. The camera you have is more than good enough to make a low budget film with. If this is your first feature, do not put yourself into a position where the care and feeding of an expensive rental camera, or the uncertainties of an unconventional work flow get in the way of telling your story the way that you want to. Save your money. I have done quit a bit of guerrilla film work, and it is amazing the kind of spending frenzy you can find yourself in. The camera you have is a very good camera. Save your money for food, coffee, gas, costume repair, make up, hair spray, coffee,gaffer tape, electrical cords, bulbs, gels, bug repellant, sunscreen, coffee, parking, cleaning supplies, copy expenses,coffee, band aids, first aid cream, black wrap, Motrin tabs, foam core, poster boards, paint, coffee, and the other of hundreds of things you are going to end having to spend money on when making a low budget film, that you did not even anticipate. And did i mention coffee?

I gotta second the need for a good gaffer and sound guy. They are worth their weight in gold.... and of course they will need coffee!
 
lalugela said:
The question is really, how do I spend $4,000-$10,000 on this feature?.
Click to expand...

Is it that you 'want' to spend $4,000-$10,000 on this film?

If you take one camera route over the other, what else did you lose that you could have done by not spending the money on the new gear?

I'm assuming that since you have the Letus, you have already shot a 'short' before doing your 'feature'. If not, why not? Shooting a short is probably going to cost you a lost less and you will learn from experience what you need and don't need. Experience is worth a lot more than advice from people who may not actually have that experience themselves. It's easy to be an armchair director/producer, but much harder (and more expensive) to do it for real.

Is your budget based on the toys you want, or the actual cost of making the movie?

If you have a script, do you have a story board? You can get away without a visual story board as long as you have good written notes that do the same thing, and it needs to detail each and every shot in every scene. This will allow you to better understand the time it will take and any budget that will be required. Personally I'm not good at hand sketches so visual story boards are a problem for me to create ;)

Have you actually costed each scene? This is a 'must' before you even think about equipment, because you need to know what the budget is in total (excluding new toys), and you can't do that until you have budgeted each scene. Add some fudge factor to each scene. Some will actually cost you more than you think, others may be less.

Have you budgeted time properly? How many takes have you allowed for each scene? How much time have you allowed for setup and pull down on each scene? Go through the motions and make sure these estimates are accurate, because if you want to rent some equipment you don't want to have to send it back after shooting only half the film because you ran out of time (and budget).

If you rent gear (e.g. RED) have you budgeted enough time to learn how to use it properly AND figured out the work flow to know that the footage you are shooting is actually what you need it to be?

If you have any doubts , spend as little as possible now, save the money until your really 'need' (not want) something and shoot with what you have until you find it simply can't do the job, no matter how inventive you get with it (you can generally find a workaround if you think about it long enough). You may just find that doing it the 'cheap' way makes you focus on the shooting and editing skills more than you otherwise would with new gear and you end up with a better film because of it.

Sure, RED would be nice, I would love one too. A 5D2 or 7D would be nice also, but how much difference will it 'really' make to the story, the directing, the acting / action, the pace, the editing and all the other things that go in to a successful movie?
 
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lalugela said:
The question is really, how do I spend $4,000-$10,000 on this feature?

Do I:
A. Shoot the feature on my current rig (HMC 150 w/ Letus on Nikons) buy a few more primes (only have a 50 mm) buy some cool lights (kinos), rent dolly, and miscellaneous...

B. Sell my HMC 150 w/ Letus and get a Mark II, lenses, lights, etc.

C. Rent RED, shoot weekends with thin lighting package on super fast pace.

Thanks everyone for the advice and support! I'm leaning more towards just going for it now that I see your confidence in the HMC. I really do feel that I can make it happen with a great story— I just don't want to be eliminated from festival chances/ broadcast chances just because of a technical thing.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you now, I've worked on a number of shoots with the Red, and NOTHING goes fast on a Red shoot! Undoubtedly they have perhaps the finest looking picture quality that you are going to find anywhere, but the camera is "problem plagued". You can NOT rely on recording audio onto the Red. You will need to have it backed up on another recorder. Additionally there have been many reports of the Reds going down on site. Their reliability is very poor.

All that being said, IF you can afford the Red WITH a good DIT (camera tech), and still be able to hire a good soundman and a good lighting guy, by all means go for it! But if renting the Red means you are going to have to skimp in other areas, don't do it.

Tom
 
My experience, I feel at this point, is pretty decent. I've worked with a variety of formats including 35, super 16, RED, and of course HVX, HMC, etc. My work covers a lot in terms of style as well— I've done short documentaries, short film, a web sitcom pilot, sketch comedy, music videos, live music, etc.

I understand the work that needs to be done to make a feature, from script to final cut. Right now I'm months before I want to begin the actual pre-pro for this feature. I'm just trying to decide my approach and figure out the best plan.

This thread has given me a lot more confidence in shooting on an HMC. You know, I want to believe that my script/story can carry the load— but there is a certain minimum quality that needs to be obtained— and there are many negative side effects to roughing it. Fellow HMC users on this thread are giving me faith in the camera.

So you guys advise getting a gaffer and sound guy? I was thinking of doing it ghetto with a DP/gaffer in one, a sound guy, and any free PA's I can get (between my friends, cousins, brothers, high school kids looking for exp.)...

What would you pay your crew if you're paying for your own film? $100/day for 12 hr days? I know that's pretty ghetto, but if it's your friends and they're invested in the project, they'll do it. That's my plan anyways.

Anyone want to work on a feature in Seattle late this summer?

Exact said:
Is it that you 'want' to spend $4,000-$10,000 on this film?

If you take one camera route over the other, what else did you lose that you could have done by not spending the money on the new gear?

I'm assuming that since you have the Letus, you have already shot a 'short' before doing your 'feature'. If not, why not? Shooting a short is probably going to cost you a lost less and you will learn from experience what you need and don't need. Experience is worth a lot more than advice from people who may not actually have that experience themselves. It's easy to be an armchair director/producer, but much harder (and more expensive) to do it for real.

Is your budget based on the toys you want, or the actual cost of making the movie?

If you have a script, do you have a story board? You can get away without a visual story board as long as you have good written notes that do the same thing, and it needs to detail each and every shot in every scene. This will allow you to better understand the time it will take and any budget that will be required. Personally I'm not good at hand sketches so visual story boards are a problem for me to create ;)

Have you actually costed each scene? This is a 'must' before you even think about equipment, because you need to know what the budget is in total (excluding new toys), and you can't do that until you have budgeted each scene. Add some fudge factor to each scene. Some will actually cost you more than you think, others may be less.

Have you budgeted time properly? How many takes have you allowed for each scene? How much time have you allowed for setup and pull down on each scene? Go through the motions and make sure these estimates are accurate, because if you want to rent some equipment you don't want to have to send it back after shooting only half the film because you ran out of time (and budget).

If you rent gear (e.g. RED) have you budgeted enough time to learn how to use it properly AND figured out the work flow to know that the footage you are shooting is actually what you need it to be?

If you have any doubts , spend as little as possible now, save the money until your really 'need' (not want) something and shoot with what you have until you find it simply can't do the job, no matter how inventive you get with it (you can generally find a workaround if you think about it long enough). You may just find that doing it the 'cheap' way makes you focus on the shooting and editing skills more than you otherwise would with new gear and you end up with a better film because of it.

Sure, RED would be nice, I would love one too. A 5D2 or 7D would be nice also, but how much difference will it 'really' make to the story, the directing, the acting / action, the pace, the editing and all the other things that go in to a successful movie?
Click to expand...
 
the hmc is rock solid and very capable. better than the hvx200.
i also would recommend a gaffer/camera operator so that you can focus on dp and directing.
even if you operate/direct it will free you up to have someone else re-light for each scene. i've found it is enough work just to position and set up the camera for each shot while also trying to direct. trying to adjust lighting and equipment on top of that will really slow you down and very easily take away from your availability/presence for directing.
and of course, having a dedicated audio technician is an absolute requirement, imo, for a professional production.

if you plan to focus mostly on directing, and you have a relaxed schedule, you can get away with having someone else dp/operate/gaffer. especially if you assist a little. a lot of audio guys also operate cameras and work as gaffers.

remember, free labor usually costs more in management time! so factor that into your equation. personally, i prefer to assemble a team of dedicated artists and aspiring professionals, who can commit to the entire project. the synergy you can get from a good team will not only save you time and money, but will improve the quality of the final product.

those are the places i would not skimp. in fact, i prefer to spend my money actually paying my cast and crew. even a small amount, on top of their out-of-pocket expenses and craft services, goes such a long ways towards building goodwill and keeping people enthusiastic about their work.

you've got the camera, invest your money in sound, then lights, and the rest on cast/crew (food and other must haves are a given). even a crappy camera can look good with great lighting! but bad audio will never sound good and unhappy actors and crew are just no fun.
 
lalugela said:
My experience, I feel at this point, is pretty decent. I've worked with a variety of formats including 35, super 16, RED, and of course HVX, HMC, etc. My work covers a lot in terms of style as well— I've done short documentaries, short film, a web sitcom pilot, sketch comedy, music videos, live music, etc.
Click to expand...

OK - glad to hear this. So, what was making you question the abilities of the HMC?
 
Interesting take on budgeting Averan.

I've Directed/DPed, and I'd prefer not to do that. I'll likely have a DP/gaffer and a sound guy— paid. Then I'm not sure where to go from there. Getting spare hands in the form of aspiring youngsters works well for shorts and music videos, I don't know how well it translates to features. I know what you're saying about managerial costs— and it sucks when you hang your main crew to dry. (ie: you have a DP, but no AC, no grip, no nothing!)

And in reference to what Exact asks about questioning the HMC... well to be honest, I see a pretty redeeming quality in 16. The ability to shoot in low light on superspeeds is pretty tempting, albeit effing expensive. I just shot a short on the Aaton XTR Prod w/ Zeiss superspeeds. We used all natural light. Uncolorcorrected we got a scan of a shot we did under a street light.. it looks like we have a 4K HMI blasting!!

The debate still goes on in my mind about whether I should shoot a short teaser for the feature and raise money, or just go balls out and make a feature on my own?!

The one lucky thing I have going for me is that my principle cast will act free. (it's a long story) Thanks everyone for your input and advice, thus far!
-Max
averan said:
the hmc is rock solid and very capable. better than the hvx200.
i also would recommend a gaffer/camera operator so that you can focus on dp and directing.
even if you operate/direct it will free you up to have someone else re-light for each scene. i've found it is enough work just to position and set up the camera for each shot while also trying to direct. trying to adjust lighting and equipment on top of that will really slow you down and very easily take away from your availability/presence for directing.
and of course, having a dedicated audio technician is an absolute requirement, imo, for a professional production.

if you plan to focus mostly on directing, and you have a relaxed schedule, you can get away with having someone else dp/operate/gaffer. especially if you assist a little. a lot of audio guys also operate cameras and work as gaffers.

remember, free labor usually costs more in management time! so factor that into your equation. personally, i prefer to assemble a team of dedicated artists and aspiring professionals, who can commit to the entire project. the synergy you can get from a good team will not only save you time and money, but will improve the quality of the final product.

those are the places i would not skimp. in fact, i prefer to spend my money actually paying my cast and crew. even a small amount, on top of their out-of-pocket expenses and craft services, goes such a long ways towards building goodwill and keeping people enthusiastic about their work.

you've got the camera, invest your money in sound, then lights, and the rest on cast/crew (food and other must haves are a given). even a crappy camera can look good with great lighting! but bad audio will never sound good and unhappy actors and crew are just no fun.
Click to expand...
 
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