Ian-T
Veteran
I give this post an A++ Well said.
Shooting a feature with the EOS 7D?
- Thread starter SaintDemure
- Start date
Grab your pitchforks, but I'm with the op on apprehension as a dp. The 7D and
all of these dslrs are pretty crap for a dp on a feature. I'd be and have been terrified of what will show up on set or on screen and I've got a considerable personal cash investment in them; time as well.
The cost of using a 7d on a feature is not that big of a difference then
using a RED. Sure, you might fair better shooting nigh exteriors with the 7D and fast
glass but what hoops are you going to have to jump through to make it work otherwise?
Versus RED, with the updates that've been added in the last few months shooting at high iso and denoising offers still an icredible image with much less isues than what tr 7D presents. And you still get everything you need in a camera.
Price is pretty moot. A good money man will grip a RED for pennies and the final
product (all other things being on the level) will at least look better.
And what about mechanical issues? I didn't mention this but TWO of my cameras threw temp warnings at the same time this weekend. It was because they weren't sun shaded and it wasn't even that hot outside! I would have been worried d I hadn't brought a third body for backup and my 5D.
If the production needs an ac that's another issue altogeher. Try acing with a camera like this that isn't outfitted to all hell properly. And the support gear doesn't change for the most part. You still need a good set of sticks etc. Jibs get smaller but you still have to weight the camera down for smooth operation.
There are so many more issues to using this as a tool for lengthy production that are overlooked. I appreciate the optimism an I am not saying it can't be done. If someone else is footing the bill and I was dping I would be the same way. Cautioned is the term
for it and certainly on high alert when shooting.
With all that said I'm still lobbying to shoot a sci-fi comedy on 7Ds or 5Ds barring the 24P update is there in time for the latter. It's got nothing to do with budget though. The strength I want to capitalize the most on is multiple camera application in a discreet package. The small bark but the decently sized bite.
Like Matty described and we all know: comes down to the application.
So I'd be worried and a little put off to.
all of these dslrs are pretty crap for a dp on a feature. I'd be and have been terrified of what will show up on set or on screen and I've got a considerable personal cash investment in them; time as well.
The cost of using a 7d on a feature is not that big of a difference then
using a RED. Sure, you might fair better shooting nigh exteriors with the 7D and fast
glass but what hoops are you going to have to jump through to make it work otherwise?
Versus RED, with the updates that've been added in the last few months shooting at high iso and denoising offers still an icredible image with much less isues than what tr 7D presents. And you still get everything you need in a camera.
Price is pretty moot. A good money man will grip a RED for pennies and the final
product (all other things being on the level) will at least look better.
And what about mechanical issues? I didn't mention this but TWO of my cameras threw temp warnings at the same time this weekend. It was because they weren't sun shaded and it wasn't even that hot outside! I would have been worried d I hadn't brought a third body for backup and my 5D.
If the production needs an ac that's another issue altogeher. Try acing with a camera like this that isn't outfitted to all hell properly. And the support gear doesn't change for the most part. You still need a good set of sticks etc. Jibs get smaller but you still have to weight the camera down for smooth operation.
There are so many more issues to using this as a tool for lengthy production that are overlooked. I appreciate the optimism an I am not saying it can't be done. If someone else is footing the bill and I was dping I would be the same way. Cautioned is the term
for it and certainly on high alert when shooting.
With all that said I'm still lobbying to shoot a sci-fi comedy on 7Ds or 5Ds barring the 24P update is there in time for the latter. It's got nothing to do with budget though. The strength I want to capitalize the most on is multiple camera application in a discreet package. The small bark but the decently sized bite.
Like Matty described and we all know: comes down to the application.
So I'd be worried and a little put off to.
Kholi you own RED so its easy for you to say that,but some people are really on low budget.
How much do You charge for one day RED rental + zeiss superspeeds lenses ?
In UK its 350GBP + 350GBP for lenses per day.
I doubt that any believes that his producer was serious when said that 7D looks better than RED ,its just funny to hear that.His reason is budget.
I guess biggest problem with 7D is moire... right?
BEsides ,we dont even know his budget.
How much do You charge for one day RED rental + zeiss superspeeds lenses ?
In UK its 350GBP + 350GBP for lenses per day.
I doubt that any believes that his producer was serious when said that 7D looks better than RED ,its just funny to hear that.His reason is budget.
I guess biggest problem with 7D is moire... right?
BEsides ,we dont even know his budget.
You can get a pretty damned decent RED package for 1500 a week no issue. Even better if you play the market right.
By the way I did say I'm lobbying to use four 7ds and some 5ds on a feature. With the exception of maybe wides or vfx shots whichll be RED. Hell, even some
of the wides will be with the dslrs.
It fits the content.
I'm not against dslrs on features as a producer or director. I am as a dp, vfx artist, colorist etc. The topic is started by a DP so I'm more so responding from that POv.
Also, image wise moire isn't the only issue. But I also think issue is subjective or opinion. Operational, There are a number of things to overcome.
By the way I did say I'm lobbying to use four 7ds and some 5ds on a feature. With the exception of maybe wides or vfx shots whichll be RED. Hell, even some
of the wides will be with the dslrs.
It fits the content.
I'm not against dslrs on features as a producer or director. I am as a dp, vfx artist, colorist etc. The topic is started by a DP so I'm more so responding from that POv.
Also, image wise moire isn't the only issue. But I also think issue is subjective or opinion. Operational, There are a number of things to overcome.
slimjimmed
Well-known member
$750 a day in Oregon
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
everything's negotiable. especially if the package isn't going out. heck, in LA I've had two people offer to let me use their Red at no charge.
exactly
Barry_Green
Moderator
Folks, obviously it's entirely possible to shoot a feature film entirely on a canon 7D.
It is also possible to travel from coast to coast via skateboard. Nobody's telling anyone that they CAN'T do it, only that... well, most folks would choose to travel coast to coast by air or car instead of skateboard. And most anyone who's ever shot anything, would prefer to work with a well-rounded tool, especially during the grind of a feature production. Simple little things like, oh, being able to actually monitor your audio, or having any sort of exposure tool, just plain come in handy, and working without those things means additional hassle.
Ever wonder why folks who make their breakthrough film on 16mm, and go on to a "real" career in the movies, NEVER shoot on 16mm again? It's more work and more hassle, for less final result. Yes it's a little cheaper, but if you can possibly swing it, you go 35mm. Or Red.
Go read the Corrado thread again; Adam was dead set on shooting on an HVX200 with adapter, I even tried to work a deal where he'd shoot it on my Red, but he said no, he's gonna do it on the HVX. And about two weeks into it he was regretting the decision, saying he would never use less than a 2/3" camera again, because of the limitations of the smaller camera. And an HVX is positively luxurious in capabilities, as compared to the limitations in a DSLR.
Anyway, use what you've got, use what you can afford, and just decide if the hassle factor vs. budget factor lines up for you.
It is also possible to travel from coast to coast via skateboard. Nobody's telling anyone that they CAN'T do it, only that... well, most folks would choose to travel coast to coast by air or car instead of skateboard. And most anyone who's ever shot anything, would prefer to work with a well-rounded tool, especially during the grind of a feature production. Simple little things like, oh, being able to actually monitor your audio, or having any sort of exposure tool, just plain come in handy, and working without those things means additional hassle.
Ever wonder why folks who make their breakthrough film on 16mm, and go on to a "real" career in the movies, NEVER shoot on 16mm again? It's more work and more hassle, for less final result. Yes it's a little cheaper, but if you can possibly swing it, you go 35mm. Or Red.
Go read the Corrado thread again; Adam was dead set on shooting on an HVX200 with adapter, I even tried to work a deal where he'd shoot it on my Red, but he said no, he's gonna do it on the HVX. And about two weeks into it he was regretting the decision, saying he would never use less than a 2/3" camera again, because of the limitations of the smaller camera. And an HVX is positively luxurious in capabilities, as compared to the limitations in a DSLR.
Anyway, use what you've got, use what you can afford, and just decide if the hassle factor vs. budget factor lines up for you.
Anytime you work with a Producer who doesn't heed your technical advice as a DP, you know you're in for a rough ride.
If it's a matter of budget, and not enough money, than it's completely understandable, a DP with a good attitude will shoot with a dvx100 if that's the case. But if it's some misinformed producer who doesn't care about your technical experience and expertise, watch out, he'll probably cut your legs off during the shoot too.
If he doesn't want to shoot with a RED for budget reasons, try suggesting shooting with an Sony EX1 or EX3 with a 35mm adapter like the Redrock M2e or Letus Ultimate. That's what I would do anyways, if I could not rent a RED or a high end 2/3" HD camera like the 900R or a Varicam.
Good luck and play your cards right!
If it's a matter of budget, and not enough money, than it's completely understandable, a DP with a good attitude will shoot with a dvx100 if that's the case. But if it's some misinformed producer who doesn't care about your technical experience and expertise, watch out, he'll probably cut your legs off during the shoot too.
If he doesn't want to shoot with a RED for budget reasons, try suggesting shooting with an Sony EX1 or EX3 with a 35mm adapter like the Redrock M2e or Letus Ultimate. That's what I would do anyways, if I could not rent a RED or a high end 2/3" HD camera like the 900R or a Varicam.
Good luck and play your cards right!
Drew Ott
Wish I were banned.
Unless the folks decide that the look of 16mm is better for their content, despite how it performs on a resolution chart next to 35mm.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
I think that you should put together two bids. One for a RED shoot, with the lighting package you think that you need to shoot with that camera. Then a second bid for a shot with the 7D, including the lighting package that you think you would need for that camera. But, for the 7D shoot, you should factor in the added labor that shooting with that camera will take, which should be AT LEAST, the difference between the cost of owning a 7D and renting a RED for the duration of the shoot, and the difference of the costs of the lighting packages you estimate for both shoots. Both bids should really be about the same amout. (I would cut the guy some slack on the cost of glass for the RED verses the cost of glass for the 7D, but that is the only slack I would cut).
If the producer is convinced, that the quality of the RED sucks, then he should be wiling to pay for the extra labor and hassle that you, as a professional craftsman, is going to have to provide to the project to make HIS choice of camera work for the project.
If he goes for this (Which I would bet my weekly rate, he won't), then take the cost difference and do the job with the 7D (and you can post a serious feature filmmaking with the 7d thread that we all can learn from, please take lots of BTS pix). If he does not take that deal, then you need to have a serious discussion with him about his available budget and more proper tools to shoot a feature with.
If the producer is convinced, that the quality of the RED sucks, then he should be wiling to pay for the extra labor and hassle that you, as a professional craftsman, is going to have to provide to the project to make HIS choice of camera work for the project.
If he goes for this (Which I would bet my weekly rate, he won't), then take the cost difference and do the job with the 7D (and you can post a serious feature filmmaking with the 7d thread that we all can learn from, please take lots of BTS pix). If he does not take that deal, then you need to have a serious discussion with him about his available budget and more proper tools to shoot a feature with.
a lot of directors do go back to super 16. regular 16 not so much though, yeah. anyway though, yeah if it were you that wanted to shoot it on the 7d I'd say go for it, but since it seems like it's the producer that's kind of pushing it on you I'd say he's either lying because he wants to be cheap, or he's actually misguided. the 7d is nice and is totally feature-capable imho but there's nothing it can really do better than the red at all.
DUDE Seriously, 7D for a Feature? NO WAY. get the RED, and a grip truck. i've been using the damn 5D/7D on music videos and i wish it were never invented.
its just a big mess of work arounds, and sneak tactics getting the camera to a use able state. then when its just about to be ready to shoot, its starting to overheat, and you lose whats left of the image quality. It is GREAT for grabbing that shot on the subway, and maybe some Broll, or a quick dialogue scene under the streetlamp, but for studio applications, its bunk.
oh now youre just wishing "you were banned"....
well quite frankly, you just cant DO alot of things with a 7D. You cant monitor on Stedicam, you can barely monitor for focus, and forget about a video village, Waveforms, or any kind of scopes....
480P is not quite enough to pull focus for HD. Unfortunately, modern Canon lenses are coarsely marked, and pulling with a measuring tape isn't exactly efficient. In fact a lot of the EF lenses, actually go past infinity, and are tough to match up, so marks on a FF are moot.
To be honest, over the course of weeks shooting a feature you will just get exhausted dealing with the issues. barry's skateboard analogy was about right.
its just a big mess of work arounds, and sneak tactics getting the camera to a use able state. then when its just about to be ready to shoot, its starting to overheat, and you lose whats left of the image quality. It is GREAT for grabbing that shot on the subway, and maybe some Broll, or a quick dialogue scene under the streetlamp, but for studio applications, its bunk.
oh now youre just wishing "you were banned"....
well quite frankly, you just cant DO alot of things with a 7D. You cant monitor on Stedicam, you can barely monitor for focus, and forget about a video village, Waveforms, or any kind of scopes....
480P is not quite enough to pull focus for HD. Unfortunately, modern Canon lenses are coarsely marked, and pulling with a measuring tape isn't exactly efficient. In fact a lot of the EF lenses, actually go past infinity, and are tough to match up, so marks on a FF are moot.
To be honest, over the course of weeks shooting a feature you will just get exhausted dealing with the issues. barry's skateboard analogy was about right.
salils
Well-known member
I totally agree...thank you for saying this. Why are people so critical of sharpness? Most people's work still doesn't end up being seen in anything more than 720p HD. And the average viewer can't tell the difference between 1080p and 720p...
If you have serious money for a serious polished production, rent serious equipment. If you don't then just get what will allow you to achieve the look and have the flexability you need for the project (and stay within budget). Sharpness was more important with SD but these days well shot 720p is more than enough for me unless I'm shooting batman 3
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It's all a matter of how far away you are from the screen. The average viewer indeed sits too far away to tell the difference. If you watch from a distance of 1.2x screen widths or farther, chances are you won't be able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. A group of A/V enthusiasts couldn't.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9157454
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340
Skateboard is to 747 as 7D is to Red????? Really????
Taylor Rudd
Veteran
Yes.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Ever heard of anyone doing it?
Figgis is the only one I can even think of. Considering there are hundreds of directors out there making hundreds of 35mm & Red features every year, and only one of 'em has ever taken that step downwards, and he specifically did it because he wanted that look for "Leaving Las Vegas", I think that pretty much proves the point.