shooting a feature with P2

G

Gundorf Dunderklumpen

Well-known member
Has anyone here shot a feature with the P2 and if so, what methods and procedures did you use while shooting ( labeling clips, keeping track of audio that is going to tape etc) Trying to find the best way to make life easy in the editing room.
We will be working with P2 cards only and using a Mac laptop with FCPro and an external hard drive.
 
We started on P2 cards for our feature, but have now switched to using DVrack in 1080p25. Laptop is connected over an 60ft firewire umbilical cord. Main reasons are HD monitoring( a 1920-1200 laptop screen and a Dell24" LCD), and shot selection/management.
 
We shot pickups from my feature with the HVX and P2...we shot one 8GB card at a time so that one could be offloaded to the laptop, backed up on DVD-R and then recycled...ooh, I cringe every time I think of it.

Some things to be aware of -if you're in F6 and you've set your optimal settings, make sure they stay that way...somehow we had a monkey handle the camera and the switch went over to F5 which was still factory set up -oh, what a difference when you tweak F6 on an HD-CRT versus F5 out of the box.

Also, another curious thing -somehow we were recording 720P but some of it ended up being recorded at 480P...more curious digits going where they shouldn't...so if you have a decent monitor that tells you it detects a 480 signal -do not ignore it -it's real.

I would definitely recommend getting software that enables you to monitor the stuff you've just nuked (or are about to) and I mean both picture and sound if you aren't using a double system for audio. At least 3 8GB cards so you can verify the content is cool and non-corrupted.
 
eLeventy said:
Laptop is connected over an 60ft firewire umbilical cord. Main reasons are HD monitoring( a 1920-1200 laptop screen and a Dell24" LCD), and shot selection/management.
Click to expand...

Hi.

What firewire cable are you using over 60ft?

Thanks. Pete.
 
Official maximum length for firewire is about 15ft, but you can go reliably up to 30ft with good quality cables.

We actually use 3 firewire repeaters:
-3ft 4pin/6pin cable from laptop to 1st repeater
-6pin/6pin repeater with power supply ( this also feeds the other repeaters with power over the 6pin cables)
-15ft 6p/6p cable.
-2nd smaller 6p/6p repeater ( power comes over firewire cable). Placed inside a waterproof housing.
-15ft 6p/6p cable
-3rd small repeater. This one sits underneath the HVX
-1ft 6p/4p cable to camera. Ths cable has a right-angle 4pin.

No problems yet after 3 months of recoding 1080p25 signals.
The umbilical cord also includes a 12V and 9V powerline for the camera, the RedRock M2, the focus remote and the external viewfinder; a coax for video, a 4way XLR audio multicable, and a cable for the focus remote. Total length: about 22 meters.
 
Thanks eLeventy.

That's some serious cabling. Once you start adding all the extras, and loving what they add to the production, it's hard to go back to a set of sticks, a camera and some tapes.

Pete.
 
We've actually been working like this for years: a long multicable with audio and video for directors' view and sound engineer. The actual recording was of course in camera, on tape.

The main difference is that the recording is now in the director's seat, which gives instant review capabilities.
 
I have shot 6 features with the HVX200 with budgets ranging from $85,000 to $1million. I use P2 cards (I prefer to have at least 3 cards for each camera) into the P2 store, into 2 Terabyte external hard-drives via the Macbookpro giving me two copies of the footage. I would never send my footage through a wire, especially if you are doing hand held action! I have heard too many horror stories of the wire coming loose and no one noticing for hours. In the budget range of these films there is usually no time to reshoot bad or lost footage. With the P2 cards I can check and log every take and catch any glitches immediately.

Producers that are used to using film freaked out because there was no camera report 'from the lab' with this process, so I keep a log of the P2 cards as I process them indicating the time they came from camera, when I downloaded them and when they were erased. I also keep a separate log of what is on each clip on each card. These 2 documents go to the post house as the'camera report.' At the end of each day I either head to the editor's house or the post house and download the days footage.

I am now starting to get jobs on reality shoots - which are insane. The last one had 10 8gig cards and 4 4gig cards and I could barely keep up with the downloading. They had 4 cameras rolling at once and shot 100 gigs in the last 1-1/2 hours of the shoot. It's an adrenalin rush to be in the midst of that chaos but I am working to smooth out the process as much as possible.

Anyone else shooting reality forTV? How are you handling the download and what format are you shooting?

Cheers!
Dragon63
 
Wait, how does the Firewire cable come lose and no one notices? There's a warning that flashes on the HVX screen when this happens!

I shoot exclusively with an FS-100, love it. A Firewire cable with a right-angle on the 4-pin side fits really snug. Cabling is a film making reality, way before Firewire issues. It's not rocket science. A little common sense and lost FW connections just simply do not happen.
 
eLeventy said:
We started on P2 cards for our feature, but have now switched to using DVrack in 1080p25. Laptop is connected over an 60ft firewire umbilical cord. Main reasons are HD monitoring( a 1920-1200 laptop screen and a Dell24" LCD), and shot selection/management.
Click to expand...
eLeventy, is the Dell 24" a 2405 or 2407? If so, what are you using for critical HVX camera setup? I am recording HVX 1080p24 with DV Rack into a laptop and also have/use a Dell 24" 2405. I find for pan/tilt moves, especially fast ones, I have to look to the Dell for framing, if I can not see the HVX LCD because of Jib Jnr mount, because of DV Rack/firewire latency to the laptop LCD. The Dell 24" is fine for me with focus and framing, however, the noise and crawling is not satisfactory to me for camera setup/tweaks. Similarly, I am concerned about the LCD on the laptop for camera tweaking and true image representation. I am looking towards using an LH-1700 next year. Any comments, as this setup is new for me?
 
we are shooting an internet series and use two, sometimes three P2 cards. I set up a "video village" with my powerbook and two external hard drives. I use P2 log to rename the clips and save to both hard drives. I only let the the DP have one card at a time. If we use two cameras it gets a bit hectic but extremely "doable." I create folders for both a cam and b cam prior to shooting and decide what to call them beforehand. It saves wear and tear on the brain the day of shooting.
 
BenB - I have no idea how the cable comes loose without anyone noticing - but I have heard of it happening. Have they upgraded the FS-100 yet? Does it have a thumbnail screen? I don't use it because you cannot (at least you couldn't in June 2006) shoot 720/24pN with it and that is what I shoot all my features in. Have you had any problems with it crashing at all? I had to laugh at the instruction booklet when it said, 'sure you can delete a single clip.' Then a few pages later it said, 'be cautious in deleting clips because you might corrupt the entire drive.' But if you are not having those problems then they have probably debugged it by now.
 
Christopher Barry said:
eLeventy, is the Dell 24" a 2405 or 2407? If so, what are you using for critical HVX camera setup? I am recording HVX 1080p24 with DV Rack into a laptop and also have/use a Dell 24" 2405. I find for pan/tilt moves, especially fast ones, I have to look to the Dell for framing, if I can not see the HVX LCD because of Jib Jnr mount, because of DV Rack/firewire latency to the laptop LCD. The Dell 24" is fine for me with focus and framing, however, the noise and crawling is not satisfactory to me for camera setup/tweaks. Similarly, I am concerned about the LCD on the laptop for camera tweaking and true image representation. I am looking towards using an LH-1700 next year. Any comments, as this setup is new for me?
Click to expand...

It's a 2405, I think. We compared the LCD and the laptop screen to a broadcast Sony monitor, so we have a rough idea where it is going, in combination with the DVrack scopes. Because of the latency, the LCD is unusable for direct focusing and framing. Framing is done on camera with a modified Sony broadcast viewfinder from an old SX camera. The luminance signal from the HVX S-video is fed to the viewfinder, which has its CRT inverted internally for the M2. Also, the composite signal is sent to the Sony broadcast SD monitor for viewing motion( Laptop doesn't always display all frames, so motion is sometimes jerky). the LCD is useful for monitoring focus by a camera assistant. You can see if you go out of focus, but by then of course it's too late. For our workflow, that's no problem: we rehearse with the actors, and place markers for the focus remote system. If a shot is out of focus, it is immediately deleted in DVrack, so only useable shots are kept. We are however looking for an HD on-camera monitoring system like the Marshall 7" to make focussing easier.

Focusing the RedRock M2 is done by an old Canon remote focus servo system to the M2 lenses: the photo lenses are put inside the housing of old 2/3" broadcast lenses. The electrical gears from the focus remote give a perfect grip on the housing. The electric focus remote itself is placed on the camera for the camera operator for normal operation, or at the directors' table through an extension cable included in the umbilical chord for special shots like a 40ft crane.
 
I'm not aware of anyone having any crashing problems. Focus has no real history of that in these DTE products. The new 3.0 firmware will record Native P2 modes and Native QuickTime modes, as well as the normal P2 and QT files. It's very nice.

I can quote out of context clips from a bunch of manuals from different pages and make them all sound bad. Site what exactly your reading.

I've never had the cable come lose without noticing, ESPECIALLY for an hour or two! You'd have to be really dense to not notice your recoding equipment isn't working for more than a couple of minutes. If it's important footage, you keep a watchful eye on all your recording equipment. That's just common sense. Not to mention the HVX AND FS both flash warnings when the connection is broken! Who's not looking at the camera while they shoot?

Managing cables is a fact of film life, this is just one of many cables that have to be delt with on a production. It's not rocket science, it's pretty much common sense. I was ordering a right-angled Firewire cable five minutes after I took the FS-100 out of it's box. DUH!

The FS-100 works just fine. Even without the Native modes, I'd have to use it. For some of us, P2 cards are not viable working solutions. I need long non-stop recording times. The FS-100 does that. Without it, the HVX would be a worthless camera to me, due to the limited P2 recording time. And no, I'm NOT in a situation where I can off-load P2 cards every ten minutes.

I'm happy with the FS-100. If I had problems, or was aware of wide spread problems, I'd not have anything to do with it, period.
 
eLeventy said:
It's a 2405, I think. We compared the LCD and the laptop screen to a broadcast Sony monitor, so we have a rough idea where it is going, in combination with the DVrack scopes. Because of the latency, the LCD is unusable for direct focusing and framing. Framing is done on camera with a modified Sony broadcast viewfinder from an old SX camera. The luminance signal from the HVX S-video is fed to the viewfinder, which has its CRT inverted internally for the M2. Also, the composite signal is sent to the Sony broadcast SD monitor for viewing motion( Laptop doesn't always display all frames, so motion is sometimes jerky). the LCD is useful for monitoring focus by a camera assistant. You can see if you go out of focus, but by then of course it's too late. For our workflow, that's no problem: we rehearse with the actors, and place markers for the focus remote system. If a shot is out of focus, it is immediately deleted in DVrack, so only useable shots are kept. We are however looking for an HD on-camera monitoring system like the Marshall 7" to make focussing easier.

Focusing the RedRock M2 is done by an old Canon remote focus servo system to the M2 lenses: the photo lenses are put inside the housing of old 2/3" broadcast lenses. The electrical gears from the focus remote give a perfect grip on the housing. The electric focus remote itself is placed on the camera for the camera operator for normal operation, or at the directors' table through an extension cable included in the umbilical chord for special shots like a 40ft crane.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the feedback eLeventy. I read on a thread here on DVXuser about a setup where a Sony viewfinder was modified for HVX on camera use. Is that you who designed and made the product, it had a web link?

I just received the Brevis with Nikon mount, and have one of Lou's CameraTurret motor focus I hope setup in the next week or so, when my rails arrive. I am not sure how this setup will work out, if at all. This is mostly for use with the remote motorized pan/tilt head on a Jnr Jib. Your Canon motorized FF sounds like it all works fine, nice one.

In the coming months, I am factoring in a Marshall and considering an LH-1700 for on-set and post use. Since the intended use is not for a number of months from now, I am also keen to wait and see what is announced around the time of NAB.
 
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Christopher Barry said:
Thanks for the feedback eLeventy. I read on a thread here on DVXuser about a setup where a Sony viewfinder was modified for HVX on camera use. Is that you who designed and made the product, it had a web link?
Click to expand...

No, not it's not my idea. I read the same thread, and started looking up old service manuals to figure out the electronics. Once you figure out the pin-out of the connector, it's easy, but it take a 9.3V power supply. Still, a 7" Marshall will still be better for focusing.
 
That is clever that you figured out to pull the luminance channel out of the Y/C signal for the B&W viewfinder.

Do you have an opinion on how to logically take the HVX output of Component HD and feed it into a Marshall and say an LH-1700. Both have Component HD I/O (thru). Would you loop through one to the other. My concern, I want true signal to LH-1700 for colour and camera image tweaks and decent signal to Marshall for focus, etc. Logically, the easiest cabling config would be to go HVX Component HD to Marshall and take the output to the LH-1700. Concern is how the Component HD signal is dealt with internally (boosted, etc) in the Marshall, if at all, before it feeds to the output that would then feed to the LH-1700. I have alternative ideas, however, I will save those for later reference, if need be.

Soma eyeballing and perhaps an external scope would answer the question as to whether the Marshall in anyway affects the signal that is passed through. Any feedback appreciated? Thanks.

Please excuse me for hijacking this thread.
 
Christopher Barry said:
Do you have an opinion on how to logically take the HVX output of Component HD and feed it into a Marshall and say an LH-1700. Both have Component HD I/O (thru). Would you loop through one to the other. My concern, I want true signal to LH-1700 for colour and camera image tweaks and decent signal to Marshall for focus, etc. Logically, the easiest cabling config would be to go HVX Component HD to Marshall and take the output to the LH-1700. Concern is how the Component HD signal is dealt with internally (boosted, etc) in the Marshall, if at all, before it feeds to the output that would then feed to the LH-1700. I have alternative ideas, however, I will save those for later reference, if need be.

Soma eyeballing and perhaps an external scope would answer the question as to whether the Marshall in anyway affects the signal that is passed through. Any feedback appreciated? Thanks.

Please excuse me for hijacking this thread.
Click to expand...

The possible distortion of the Marshall is easy: as you say, connect the HVX directly to the LH-1700, and then insert the Marshall in between. Compare using the build-in waveform of the LH-1700. If there is a difference, recalibrate the Pana to compensate.

The main problem I see is cable length: component connections are limited in length. With increased length, you increase the possible colorshift( timing differences in the R-G-B cables result in one color arriving later than the other).

The obvious solution is transport over HD-SDI. Both monitors are HD-SDI capable, so a single coax cable can transport the signal reliably over long distances. Logically, you connect the component cable from the camera to Marshall, because that is used for framing, and has to be close to the camera. From there, you loop over HD-SDI to the Pana monitor. The question here is ( and I don't know the answer!): does the Marshall handel the A/D conversion from component to HD-SDI? IOW, does the monitor take a component input signal, display the picture, AND at the same time, convert the component input signal, and send it out of the HD-SDI throughput? An email to the folks at Marshall should clear this out.

There is still one thing to take into consideration: DVCproHD codec compression artifacts. You are monitoring the output of the camera, but not the recorded datasignal. This is why we use DV-Rack: we monitor the DVCproHD signal over firewire, including the compression faults and limitations. Color banding and quantisation noise become apparant in lowlit, saturated scenes with one dominating color( like large red or blue parts). We adjust lighting to compensate.

A good combination seems the Marshall 7" or 12" for on-camera, and DV-rack for nearby.
 
eLeventy said:
The possible distortion of the Marshall is easy: as you say, connect the HVX directly to the LH-1700, and then insert the Marshall in between. Compare using the build-in waveform of the LH-1700. If there is a difference, recalibrate the Pana to compensate.

The main problem I see is cable length: component connections are limited in length. With increased length, you increase the possible colorshift( timing differences in the R-G-B cables result in one color arriving later than the other).

The obvious solution is transport over HD-SDI. Both monitors are HD-SDI capable, so a single coax cable can transport the signal reliably over long distances. Logically, you connect the component cable from the camera to Marshall, because that is used for framing, and has to be close to the camera. From there, you loop over HD-SDI to the Pana monitor. The question here is ( and I don't know the answer!): does the Marshall handel the A/D conversion from component to HD-SDI? IOW, does the monitor take a component input signal, display the picture, AND at the same time, convert the component input signal, and send it out of the HD-SDI throughput? An email to the folks at Marshall should clear this out.

There is still one thing to take into consideration: DVCproHD codec compression artifacts. You are monitoring the output of the camera, but not the recorded datasignal. This is why we use DV-Rack: we monitor the DVCproHD signal over firewire, including the compression faults and limitations. Color banding and quantisation noise become apparant in lowlit, saturated scenes with one dominating color( like large red or blue parts). We adjust lighting to compensate.

A good combination seems the Marshall 7" or 12" for on-camera, and DV-rack for nearby.
Click to expand...
eLeventy, this is good information and reminding me of a few points i thought about a few weeks ago, however, forgot to factor into my comments.

Firstly, there are 2 relevant Marshall 7" monitors. All analog and all SDI/HD-SDI, thus no A/D or D/A conversion.

As for the LH-1700, page 8 of the manual say: "SDI active through-out is only outputted when SDI1 or SDI2 is selected using the INPUT SELECT buttons. It is not outputted when anything other than SDI is selected." So no conversion here also.

I do not intend (for now) to run the multi-core back to a tent, like your cool setup, however, the concept is amazing and something to expand into. With short cabling setup, I would ensure the component cable made up are all timed equally to ensure colourshift is minimalised.

Using the LH-1700 onboard scope is the way to check if the signal direct from the HVX or looped through the Marshall is boosted or modified and I could tweak the picture adjustments of the LH-1700 to calibrate. Great, that solves the external scope option I erroneously factored.

I had considered that DV Rack give the true reference to the signal being recorded, namely DVCProHD encoded, yet I want to avoid the LCD of a laptop as it is not a true HDTV screen. I have calibrated the laptop LCD following the calibration method SM suggest in the DV Rack manual. The reason I wanted to put the LH-1700 in the chain was to record to DV Rack, however, for camera tweaks and settings, I was intending to record to a P2 card, then playback through the HVX component out to the LH-1700. This should give a good representation of the DVCProHD encoded signal, to a monitor that is more of a true reference. The only issue here is the HVX output to the component output has undergone a D/A conversion, though it should be reasonable for image judgement.

The more I think about it, just looping a Marshall to to the Dell 24" 2405 (Dell for directors monitor for reference) should be fine. As I will purchase an LH-1700 in due course to use with a Xena card editing suite, I was factoring using the LH-1700 on set, which I will probably do, when I purchase this monitor down the track.

I will follow your recommendation: "A good combination seems the Marshall 7" or 12" for on-camera, and DV-rack for nearby."

Great exchange of information here, thanks again eLeventy.
 
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