C500: Shogun - Initial Impressions

N

Nick Hernandez

New member
Owner/operator of a Canon C500 for the past year, mainly working with the Aja Kipro Quad and occasionally an Odyssey 7Q.
Finally got my hands on the Shogun a week back, and was just last night able to sit down and see how the C500 talks to the unit.
I've tested the C500 in every mode, and this is what I have found so far...

What works:
- MXF mode via HD/SD SDI: Shogun reads Timecode, accepts Record Command (record trigger), records all frame rates.
- 2K mode 1920x1080 YCC 10-bit 422 via 3G-SDI 1 or 2: Shogun will record 59.94p

What does NOT work:
- 2K mode 1920x1080 YCC 10-bit 422 via 3G-SDI 1 or 2: No Timecode, will not accept Record Command, will not record S&F Motion at 120fps, CP's have no effect on Shogun image.
- 2K mode 1920x1080 RGB 10-bit 444 via 3G-SDI 1 or 2: Displays a flat green screen, no timecode or Record Command.
- 4K mode: Does not see any 4K output via HDMI or 3G-SDI (not surprising considering the C500 only outputs RAW 4K + dual 3G SDI)
- HDMI: No Record Command in any mode, no timecode (timecode is a camera fault, not Atomos)

To specify a few things listed above; in 2K YCC mode the Shogun displays a very flat image no matter what Custom Picture is selected.
I can see the C500 making the adjustments to its own monitor when I go from say Cinema to Wide DR, but they have no effect on what
the Shogun is seeing. This is an issue I never had with the Kipro Quad or Odyssey 7Q. I also get no Timecode and Record Command will
not trigger the Shogun to begin recording in this mode. 2K RGB 444 straight up does not work with the Shogun. I understand the unit
cannot record 444 right now, but I'm surprised it is unable to see an image at all. This means I am limited to using YCC for 60p, and
cannot record 60p straight to a 23.98 or 29.97 timebase via S&F Motion (YCC is locked at 59.94p on the C500). Via HDMI in any and
all modes I can not get Record Command to communicate with the Shogun (not sure if this is a camera or Shogun issue). The Shogun
video input via HDMI shows 1080i 59.94 not matter what the camera mode, resolution, or frame rate is set to, although it does record
in whatever I have the camera set to.

Right now I'm quite disappointed. The C500 was one of the cameras Atomos stated would be a perfect fit for the Shogun, and as far
as I can tell there has been no testing done with the C500 prior to the Shogun's release. I say this because of what I am seeing out
of the Shogun firsthand, and as a result of the responses I received from Atomos during the preorder stage (they could never tell me
what frame rates would be compatible, or what modes would talk to the Shogun properly).

Still debating whether I will be keeping the unit or not. The screen and OS are truly beautiful, and the build quality IMO isn't nearly as
bad as it has been made out to be (I would have preferred a metal body or rubber coating on the plastic, but it certainly is not a deal
breaker). The Prores HQ footage I have gotten out of this thing is very nice.

I should also say that I have done these tests with both firmware versions 6.0.1 and 6.0.2
I posted this to the Atomos forum as well. Waiting to hear back with a timeline for fixes.
Currently very tempted to move to the 7Q+ with CD's recent firmware updates.
 
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Send it back, and get the Odyssey 7Q. It works flawlessly. I was using it today for 3 hours of interviews, and it had nary a hiccup. It has tons of features (4K, raw, prores, high speed, dpx, etc) for the C500, and they work. Finally ;)
 
cowpunk52 said:
Send it back, and get the Odyssey 7Q. It works flawlessly. I was using it today for 3 hours of interviews, and it had nary a hiccup. It has tons of features (4K, raw, prores, high speed, dpx, etc) for the C500, and they work. Finally ;)
Click to expand...

Agree. It was a rough year with CD but they have it worked out now and it is a wonderful unit. Don't go thru the birth pangs with Atmos.
 
I would note that the formats supported by the C500 have very high data requirements. The C500 can only output 4K up to 30p on a single SDI cable. To go to higher frame rates requires dual-link 3G-SDI. There is the similar requirement for 2K 12-bit RGB. The Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ have this input capability, but the Shogun has only a single link SDI input. One would need an adapter device in between to change the signal, and this does not exist for RAW data signals.

There is a limitation for recording as well. Canon RAW is a very large signal, as is 2K RGB if recorded uncompressed. Both the Odyssey monitor/recorders and the Shogun use SATA interfaces to mount SSD memory, but the Shogun only has one while the Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ have two. With only a single SATA interface it is only possible to record Canon 4K RAW up to 30p. The Odyssey monitor/recorders can capture the highest frame rates available from the C500, but this is a mathematical impossibility on the Shogun.
 
For the record, I didn't expect the Shogun to support all of the C500's outputs, but I did have higher expectations than what was delivered. Just about all of my hopes and
expectations were for HD features through 2K mode. I only need 4K once every few months, and I knew the Shogun would be very limited if not completely unavailable
in this mode for the C500. At least initially.

anatusa said:
i dont understand your problem with atomos, their website clearly says : hdmi no start / stop, hdmi no time code, Up to HD 1080p30 , Raw recording in future update
http://www.atomos.com/discovery-what-cameras/#canon

why buy something, that does not work yet
Click to expand...

That page has been updated since last I looked at it...but I do see your point. Also, Atoms still doesn't seem to know exactly how the Shogun
works with the C500. They state no 60p, but as I listed above I can get 1080 60p through YCC via 3G-SDI, albeit with no timecode or start/stop trigger.
I would also have expected them to list that 2K 1920x1080 RGB mode does not work at all. I'm well aware that RAW is coming in a future upgrade, and
that was never one of my complaints (I rarely have use for RAW).

Mitch Gross said:
I would note that the formats supported by the C500 have very high data requirements. The C500 can only output 4K up to 30p on a single SDI cable. To go to higher frame rates requires dual-link 3G-SDI. There is the similar requirement for 2K 12-bit RGB. The Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ have this input capability, but the Shogun has only a single link SDI input. One would need an adapter device in between to change the signal, and this does not exist for RAW data signals.

There is a limitation for recording as well. Canon RAW is a very large signal, as is 2K RGB if recorded uncompressed. Both the Odyssey monitor/recorders and the Shogun use SATA interfaces to mount SSD memory, but the Shogun only has one while the Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ have two. With only a single SATA interface it is only possible to record Canon 4K RAW up to 30p. The Odyssey monitor/recorders can capture the highest frame rates available from the C500, but this is a mathematical impossibility on the Shogun.
Click to expand...

I was skeptical whether the Shogun would see the 4K output because of the need for dual 3G-SDI, especially with RAW output only. I was hoping for
higher frame rates than 60p in HD, but it seems I have underestimated the C500 data rates and over estimated the ability of the Shogun. I've worked
a lot with the Kipro Quad over the past year, and most of my jobs requiring external recording out of the C500 have been 2K RGB 444 gigs. With the
Kipro I've never had to use dual 3G-SDI for this, which led me to wrongly assume that I would be able to use this mode with the Shogun (while capturing
422 instead of 444). I find it odd that I get a flat-green screen out of 3G-SDI here when any other monitor I've had hooked up to my C500 has been able
to at least display the signal.

AndreeOnline said:
Yes, viewed objectively, it's fair to say that the Odyssey products make more sense for C500 owners.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I was optimistic that I could get away with a cheaper solution, but unfortunately not.
Originally I thought I might be willing to wait for Atoms to address at least some of these issues,
but seeing how long it has taken CD to get the Odyssey to where it was supposed to be months
ago, I don't have high hopes for the Shogun. Heavily leaning toward the 7Q+ at this point
 
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