Shallow Depth of Field with Canon XA20?

F

Funkfish

New member
I'm a little new to shooting and I'm trying to capture the shallow depth of field look with my Canon XA20 and haven't really pulled it off yet.

I know the basic concept to get the look.

Position the subject far away from background (How far exactly?)
Move the camera far away and zoom in (how far exactly?)
Shoot with a low f-stop (I can't get below an fstop of 3.4 before things start looking over exposed)

I also see that there's a cinema mode on this camera, I haven't been able to figure out what the difference is between Cinema and Manual mode (Yes I read the horribly written manual)

Are there any key settings I should be doing on this camera to get this look? Any general XA20 tips would be much appreciated too!
 
You need to shoot wide open or close to it. You can open up the iris more with an ND filter. I believe the XA10 has ND gradations built-in.
 
Jordan_S said:
You need to shoot wide open or close to it. You can open up the iris more with an ND filter. I believe the XA10 has ND gradations built-in.
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I believe the built-in ND filter on HFG10, G20, XA10, XA20 and XA25 is automatic only, and available only at f/4 and higher. It is also only available on aperture priority and manual exposure modes. IOW you cannot manually select the ND filter at f/1.8 for purpose of shallow DOF.

Apparently the purpose of the build-in ND filter on these cameras is to reduce diffraction effects from small apertures when shooting in bright conditions. On the XA10/G10, you see the ND options when in aperture priority or manual and you roll the aperture smaller than f/4. It appears as options "ND 1/2", "ND 1/4", "ND 1/8". Each one is a separate fixed ND filter (not variable). Don't know about XA20, but it's probably the same.

I speculate Canon did not include wide aperture ND filters because of the cost, size and internal complexity.

He can get a shallower DOF when shooting inside by opening up the aperture, although generally it will already be open from programmed exposure. Using more telephoto will decrease the DOF, also having greater subject-to-background distance. Getting shallow DOF outside is harder since it's brighter and the camera will stop down (in programmed mode).

Outside he can get a shallower DOF by selecting aperture priority or manual exposure, opening up the aperture, and balancing the exposure with shutter speed or lower video gain. However you quickly run out of lattitude -- video gain only goes to 0 db and shutter speed is limited to 1/2000th. Getting shallow DOF is harder when using a small-sensor camcorder and requires more shot planning.

Even a DSLR has problems with shallow DOF video outdoors. With DSLRs you are typically limited to 2x the frame rate (1/60th for 30 fps), else you violate the 180 degree shutter rule. Your aperture is at (say) 2.8, and ISO only goes to about 100. Hence you need ND filters. Variable ND filters can introduce their own artifacts, and fixed ND filters are cumbersome.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss variable ND filters. I'm quite pleased with the one I have made by Singh Ray.

Shame on Canon!

But the fact of the matter is that with the XA20's lens, the bokeh will underwhelm. Instead of spending $350 on a Singh Ray, it may be wiser to get a used Rebel and an 85mm f/1.8 for shots requiring shallow DOF.
 
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So just to clarify its going to be very difficult to get the shallow DOP look with this camera yeah? I haven't been that happy with any of the footage its taken really. It was purchased by my work though so its not my money. I'm thinking about grabbing a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema, that would be a great choice for that kind of look yeah?
 
Funkfish said:
So just to clarify its going to be very difficult to get the shallow DOP look with this camera yeah? I haven't been that happy with any of the footage its taken really. It was purchased by my work though so its not my money. I'm thinking about grabbing a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema, that would be a great choice for that kind of look yeah?
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I don't think the Pocket Cinema Camera is available yet. The very limited test footage released looks very good. It has excellent dynamic range. However it doesn't have video AF of any type and doesn't do 60 frames/sec, so no smooth slow motion. The "super 16" sensor is actually quite small, roughly 1/10th the surface area of a full-frame DSLR. This implies achieving shallow depth of field would require a very fast lens. However the material released so far looks very cinematic.

Shallow DOF implies accurate manual focus control. The Pocket Cinema Camera has focus peaking (I think), so that helps some. However in many cases (depending on your eyesight) using an EVF or viewfinder loupe with diopter adjustment may be necessary. If shooting in bright outside conditions LCD panels tend to wash out. You generally must maintain shutter speed at about 2x the frame rate (1/60th sec for 30 fps). This means you max out on lowest ISO, which forces you to use neutral density filters to maintain aperture. I don't think the PCC has built-in ND, so that's something else to consider.

Here's a video which intercuts between a Red One, a 5D Mark II and a Lumix GH1. Using the right lenses and shot planning you can get nice looking footage with less-expensive DSLR or DSLR-like mirrorless cameras: http://vimeo.com/5981422?hd=1

Keep in mind when you get a removable-lense video camera, you're buying into a lens system, not just the camera. The lenses required to produce nice cinematic results can be quite expensive.
 
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This is from a Canon GL2. 50mm focal length approximately. f1.8 60th manual exposure at 100 ISO equivalent with built in ND3 filter switched in. Camera is about 6' from the bowl which is about the size of a head. The hammock is about 6' behind. But the field of sharp focus at f1.8 is only a couple of inches deep. The bowl is not entirely in focus.
I don't know the XA20, but check to see if manual mode gives you control over the built in ND filter. They are usually located at the sensor plane, so can cover the full range of the lens apertures if Canon gives you the option.
Best to do this kind of stuff in manual mode anyway and learn to control your camera for creative flexibility. Bokeh is not too shabby with Canon's lenses on this class of camera.
You can increase the shutter speed and reduce gain to the minimum in manual mode to get the aperture down too.
Experiment. You want to be as close to your subject as possible for a longer focal length and composition. Works best for head shot closeups with small chip cameras. Your sensor is slightly larger than the 1/3" chips in my GL2. Not enough to matter though.
 
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Razz16mm said:
...I don't know the XA20, but check to see if manual mode gives you control over the built in ND filter. They are usually located at the sensor plane, so can cover the full range of the lens apertures if Canon gives you the option. Best to do this kind of stuff in manual mode anyway and learn to control your camera for creative flexibility. Bokeh is not too shabby with Canon's lenses on this class of camera.
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Thanks for that example shot. As described in my above post, the built-in ND filter on the G10, G20, G30, XA10, XA20 and XA25 cannot be manually controlled. They unfortunately cannot be used at wide apertures -- they automatically activate at f/4 and above to reduce small-aperture diffraction -- that's the only real benefit.
 
joema said:
Thanks for that example shot. As described in my above post, the built-in ND filter on the G10, G20, G30, XA10, XA20 and XA25 cannot be manually controlled. They unfortunately cannot be used at wide apertures -- they automatically activate at f/4 and above to reduce small-aperture diffraction -- that's the only real benefit.
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That is too bad. About the only auto feature I use regularly on the GL2 is auto focus. The EVF and LCD aren't good enough for critical focus judgment and the servo ring is not very precise either. I'm not real fond of camera or software engineers that think they know how I want to use my gear better than I do.
 
Pete L said:
Could you not use a screw on ND filter & turn it off in the camera settings?
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Yes that's possible, and the only solution if you want an ND filter at wide aperture on the HFG10, G20, XA10, XA20 and XA25. You would not even have to turn off the internal ND filter if using aperture priority, since it doesn't work below f/4.
 
Heres a tip, being that it's not your cam, your not going to want to spend much money on accessories, but for 10.00, you can get a neewer variable nd filter (amazon), screw it on, and viola, it's surprisingly good for the price.. and ou can always toss it if you don't like it, it's only 10.00 bucks.
 
joema said:
Thanks for that example shot. As described in my above post, the built-in ND filter on the G10, G20, G30, XA10, XA20 and XA25 cannot be manually controlled. They unfortunately cannot be used at wide apertures -- they automatically activate at f/4 and above to reduce small-aperture diffraction -- that's the only real benefit.
Click to expand...
Although I complain quite a bit about Canon and their cameras, I don't really care about their ND implementation. Fact is (apparently), their lenses are at its best at f/4. It therefore makes sense to allow you to stick with f/4 even under more harsh light conditions. And sure, one could wish to be able to select the ND also at f/1.8 (or slightly more closed down), but actually, I think I wouldn't bother to decide on ND. The bokeh is pretty nervous in my opinion anyway. And typically when I'm using a small sensor videocamera I do not really care that much about shallow depth of field. Typically I use such a camera in a run-and-gun environment, an environment in which a shallow depth of field can actually become your worst nightmare. (At least, if you're like me and rank in-focus above at times out-of-focus but more shallow depth of field/bokeh.)

On my stills camera it's a different story. In that case there is the decision to be made of bokeh versus. image quality. And depending on what I'm shooting I put the ND filter on or off (I used to have a variable one, but sold it and got two and three stops versions). But those ND filters do slow me down (as almost everything on a stills camera.)
 
Jordan_S said:
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss variable ND filters. I'm quite pleased with the one I have made by Singh Ray.

Shame on Canon!

But the fact of the matter is that with the XA20's lens, the bokeh will underwhelm. Instead of spending $350 on a Singh Ray, it may be wiser to get a used Rebel and an 85mm f/1.8 for shots requiring shallow DOF.
Click to expand...


Singh Ray is sort of the Mercedes Benz of ND filters. I've been very happy using the Hoya Variable ND in 58mm It only costs $129 here in the USA.

.
 
I have Hoya Variable ND 58mm , will I need the 58mm to 55mm step down ring to use it on the XA20 or 55mm to 58mm adapter ?
I'm confused :dankk2:
 
I'm confused too. Since the filter thread diameter on an XA20 is 58mm, why won't your Hoya 58mm screw straight on?
 
I don't think step downs (55 to 58mm in this case) are a good idea. You'll get vignetting on wide and the extra stand off is likely to affect your focus and IQ. My view is you'd be better off biting the bullet and buying a 58mm filter.
 
Rainer is right; you don't want to step down to your filter. A 58mm won't be too expensive. One thing to consider is if you will use it with other lenses. If so, getting the largest size of your lenses and then getting step-up filters for each of them (except the largest of course) makes sense. But if it's just for the XA20, the 58mm is the way to go.
 
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