GH4 Settings for maximum DR (shootout tonight!!)

sdewitt said:
Thanks for the feedback.

I'll be trying my best to keep ISO to 800 at highest as in my experience anything above is quite noisy.
Also since I did not point it out before I'll be keeping master pedestal at 0 and shooting 0-255. That is the plan anyway.
Click to expand...

Try cinelikeD with contrast at +2 or cinelikev with contrast at -5. Master pedestal at 0. Noise reduction and sharpness at -5 (NR doesn't help at all and produces big ugly and flickering blotches..., sharpness over -5 will destroy the picture even more at high isos).

And don't use ANY highlight/shadows/iDynamic or iResolution. NEVER! :D

AND turn on histogram, make sure you never underexpose. Even set ISO to higher values if needed (up to 2000 is ok)


Here's an example using CinelikeV with contrast: -5:
https://vimeo.com/104966037
 
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Great footage, really inspiring - and confusing.
Were the darker outdoor shots the cinelike-V ones?

I have found that even at 1600 ISO the noise is too much, but obviously I was setting it up wrong if you are getting results like this, and you say even over 1600?

Your LUT looks really interesting. Where did you apply it? Resolve?

And yes, will not use idynamic or iresolution (EVER!).

and thanks for the feedback.

sam
 
To be honest GH4 is a noisy camera. So the max DR will be mostly determined by the amount of noise you are willing to live with and how much noise reduction you are willing to use. If you ask me GH4 is a 11 - 10.5 stop camera and nothing more. Anything above that is really noisy. Now having said that, you can get more DR out of it by lifting the blacks via lowering the contrast and lifting curves inside the camera. Other factor to do for getting max DR are:

- Don't use noise reduction in camera as it (as somebody already pointed it out) blurs the noise making it harder to remove in post. If you have fine noise, noise reduction wont remove so much detail when removing it in post than if you have to remove larger "blooby" chunks of noise.
- In post, remove the noise in a 4K/UHD timeline and only after that convert the image to HD. This will save lots of detail/resolution that would have been lost if you would remove the noise in a HD downconverted image.
- Use good noise reduction, like NeatVideo or Dark Energy!!!
- Don't desaturate the image in camera if you are shooting for max DR! If you desaturate you will have to bring it up back in post which will most probably "break" the codec as adding saturation really kills lower bitrate (and especially noisy) video material.
- Correctly white balance! I can't stress this enough. Don't use the presets as they will get you on most occasions only 80 - 85% the way and also they wont remove any unwated hue imbalances (like the ones you get with fluorescent or LED lights). If you don't meticulously take care of white balance you will be forced to push the already "maxed out" low bitrate picture in post even further to get good balance.

So, what I would do is create the best possible picture before downconverting to 10bit 4:4:4 HD. Remove the noise and maybe slightly balance the shot. Then downconvert and start working on the picture. This way you can get the full 12 - 13 stops that the sensor spits out.

GH4 is a noisy camera but it's ability to shoot 4K really saves it on lots of different fronts (not just noisy and DR) IMHO.
 
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KINOKS said:
To be honest GH4 is a noisy camera. So the max DR will be mostly determined by the amount of noise you are willing to live with and how much noise reduction you are willing to use. If you ask me GH4 is a 11 - 10.5 stop camera and nothing more. Anything above that is really noisy. Now having said that, you can get more DR out of it by lifting the blacks via lowering the contrast and lifting curves inside the camera. Other factor to do for getting max DR are:

- Don't use noise reduction in camera as it (as somebody already pointed it out) blurs the noise making it harder to remove in post. If you have fine noise, noise reduction wont remove so much detail when removing it in post than if you have to remove larger "blooby" chunks of noise.
- In post, remove the noise in a 4K/UHD timeline and only after that convert the image to HD. This will save lots of detail/resolution that would have been lost if you would remove the noise in a HD downconverted image.
- Use good noise reduction, like NeatVideo or Dark Energy!!!
- Don't desaturate the image in camera if you are shooting for max DR! If you desaturate you will have to bring it up back in post which will most probably "break" the codec as adding saturation really kills lower bitrate (and especially noisy) video material.
- Correctly white balance! I can't stress this enough. Don't use the presets as they will get you on most occasions only 80 - 85% the way and also they wont remove any unwated hue imbalances (like the ones you get with fluorescent or LED lights). If you don't meticulously take care of white balance you will be forced to push the already "maxed out" low bitrate picture in post even further to get good balance.

So, what I would do is create the best possible picture before downconverting to 10bit 4:4:4 HD. Remove the noise and maybe slightly balance the shot. Then downconvert and start working on the picture. This way you can get the full 12 - 13 stops that the sensor spits out.

GH4 is a noisy camera but it's ability to shoot 4K really saves it on lots of different fronts (not just noisy and DR) IMHO.
Click to expand...


Good points. Will try the higher saturation as well and use a vectorscope to see what happens... ;)
CineLikeD seems to push reds a lot but has a good dynamic range and looks more natural than the "Natural" preset :D.


CinelikeV though will lower dynamic range to a maximum of 10-11 stops which is great for available light. So the codec won't break because too much noise is recorded.

Noise reduction in camera as well as sharpening definitely makes everything worse.
 
DeeZiD said:
...sharpening definitely makes everything worse.
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Yep, micro contrast ie. sharpening should be aded only after noise reduction. If not, it's just going to add contrast to noise grains... So if one is going for the max DR with intent on removing noise in post definetly dont use sharpening. But in any case...this is a 4k camera, so why use sharpening in the first place!:)
 
My results are out!

Conclusions regarding the GH4: wow, this thing is sharp! It's just in a different world. Amazing. But it does suffer in terms of DR, lagging the 5D3+H.264 by over one stop, and my a7s by around three. Yet, it is so sharp that it can take a ton of NR and still be usable, which brings it much closer to the top.

The guy who brought the camera usually shoots with Cinelike D and contrast=0, sharpness and noise reduction at minimum, and default highlights and shadows. Which was pretty close to what many people suggested here, so we tested it with those settings, but contrast=-2 for the sharpness test and contrast=-5 for the DR test.
 
deezid-

thank you for posting.

that was pretty clean night time exterior footage.

iso/asa was set to what?

and one question, at 00:44 of the clip, viewing full screen on a 27" imac, when the camera rests, there is a rectangle dead center looking above a walkway in the distance.

was it raining/drizzling or is that noise artifacts?

not be argumentative, nor pixel peeping. i'm simply trying to "see" the gh4 footage for what it is capable of doing.

(and this is coming from a sony fs100 shooter!)

again, thanks in advance to those who care to share.

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions/nyc


DeeZiD said:
Try cinelikeD with contrast at +2 or cinelikev with contrast at -5. Master pedestal at 0. Noise reduction and sharpness at -5 (NR doesn't help at all and produces big ugly and flickering blotches..., sharpness over -5 will destroy the picture even more at high isos).

And don't use ANY highlight/shadows/iDynamic or iResolution. NEVER! :D

AND turn on histogram, make sure you never underexpose. Even set ISO to higher values if needed (up to 2000 is ok)


Here's an example using CinelikeV with contrast: -5:
https://vimeo.com/104966037
Click to expand...
 
what if the receiving sensor in its native form requires a pinch of sharpness just to equal normal? IE photosites are so small, they tend to be a little fuzzier than normal, and a couple steps of Sharp bring it to normal but not adding halos yet.... at least that has been my experience filming test patterns
 
I have to say...I have just done a ton of tests on sharpening, these tests are not "Scientific" so to speak, but real world...comparing details on close objects, dust, writing and lots of other things.
I have had the Gh4 for months now and although photography is not my profession ...I have had years of experience in 3d and graphics professionally ...using 1 pixel airbrushes and all kinds of tools ..editing and creating images.
Done tons of work in Adobe After Effects as well, So I know what edge sharpening looks like! and the 0 setting in the GH4 does not create edge sharpening from what I have seen.

I think it was Philip Bloom who first said that -5 sharpening was about right in the GH4, I believe he never did any tests and his conclusions were totally wrong and he helped create an ongoing myth.
Others views may differ, but in my tests 0 Sharpening is about right in the GH4...cutting it below that actually makes the image softer than it really is, particles of dust for example at a -5 setting ends up having a soft blur or fuzziness, compared to real life.
At 0 Sharpening it looks about right, same with detailed leaves on trees etc...others may not agree, but do the tests for yourself is all I am saying, you may be surprised.
Personally I would be inclined on occasions to go the other way (depending on the footage) +2 sharpening to me looks better than -2 sharpening a good deal of the time, depends what you like I guess, for a softer image winding the sharpening into the minuses may be what the film maker wants, but to say its more accurate to real life is not what I experienced in my tests (lots of them)

Another point iDynamic is very very useful in high contrast scenes bright days ...and dark shadows, try it!
To say NEVER use it is just not practical, not what I have experienced...I would say dont use it in very low light, then it does introduce noise, but its very useful in good light.
As far as highlights and shadows (NEVER USE THEM) I dont agree with that either, I would say dont be extreme with them ...but again they work fine in reverse S about -2 +2 works a treat in the right situation.

Noise? The whole noise thing is overblown IMO....I hardly ever have noisy footage, only in very low light with pushing the crap out of the ISO and a slower lens, other than that I dont even think about noise.
Agree with the master pedestal tho, best to leave it alone.

You know...I am not saying anyone has to agree or disagree with my findings...I am just presenting another angle on this...thats all.
People like Philip Bloom and others...say things like -5 is really no sharpening like it is the undisputable law ..my question is...has he done any tests?...or is it just his preference? then there are others that say never do this,
this wont work etc...etc.. like it is the final word, All I am saying is...find what works for you.
I personally dont like -5 sharpening at all, or even -5 contrast, but others do...thats fine, just presenting another point of view YMMV.
Cheers
 
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I have done the sharpeness test when I had the GH4 and though I wanted lower than -5 or otherwise the image looked too digital, too sharp for it's own good! The detail is still there at -5 just looking far more organic and soft to the eye. I personally believe -5 sharpeness will vintagelenses with a bit low sharpness and contrast are the ticket to getting a "filmic" image out of the GH4, it makes it look much more like 35mm in that it has tons of detail but still quite soft and creamy. I do get that others want a sharp image though, it's just different opinions and different types of projects. So no there's no one correct setting, you have to test yourself, unfortunately!
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I have done the sharpeness test when I had the GH4 and though I wanted lower than -5 or otherwise the image looked too digital, too sharp for it's own good! The detail is still there at -5 just looking far more organic and soft to the eye. I personally believe -5 sharpeness will vintagelenses with a bit low sharpness and contrast are the ticket to getting a "filmic" image out of the GH4, it makes it look much more like 35mm in that it has tons of detail but still quite soft and creamy. I do get that others want a sharp image though, it's just different opinions and different types of projects. So no there's no one correct setting, you have to test yourself, unfortunately!
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree with you.
Actually I would name the sharpening filter of the GH4 a videolook filter instead. It adds a really bad looking edge enhancement even at -4 or higher which makes the GH4 a great match to your ... ehm smartphone...

Without the GH4 reminds me a lot of the RED Epic (the dragon is another beast...).

If you want more sharpness (which sounds insane to me working with other cameras like Arri Alexa, Red Epic or even BMCC or using good lenses), you can still add much better sharpening post. ;)
 
DeeZiD said:
It adds a really bad looking edge enhancement even at -4 or higher which makes the GH4 a great match to your ... ehm smartphone...
you can still add much better sharpening post. ;)
Click to expand...

Well thats your view, doesn't happen to be mine, especially the smartphone comparison, I have an iPad, smartphone etc...and there is no way I would compare them to the Gh4
Anyways its detail that the GH4 has really, and probably in ten or so years people will have a new standard of comparison rather than soft looking movies.
So we have to agree to disagree I guess...You can always soften in post for a more Cinematic look.
Actually Filmic/Cinematic is a kind of misused, overused and confusing word...a lot of it is based on conditioning...and its changing because a lot of new movies look sharpish these days...Maleficent for example..and others,
many look very different from movies ten years ago, you could almost say...some look...dare I say it video-ish LOL!!
But sharpening in post to me looks more like edge sharpening a lot of the time no matter what the plugin is, wether it be BCC, Sapphire or any of them, I would rather soften a detailed image any day.

I sometimes tho...do turn sharpening down in the GH4 for a certain look, but its not my default setting in the GH4, you'll just have to get used to the fact that not all "artists" use the same brush, or have the "same"
taste, or idea of what looks good.
Anyway thats my opinion, you are welcome to yours, but at the end of the day you'll have to accept its only your opinion not the law, others may not agree.
 
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when I did my tests on a downloaded B&W printed chart, I think I used my sharpest lens at sharpest F4.... but I am sure the image was fuzzier - unlike the real image - at -4 -5. -3 and -2 were most like the real image, and -1 and 0 had the slightest halo on edges. I plan to try again soon since I know the camera better now.

Still, if it looks good and right that is the important thing. There is no ISO Standards for sharpness of someone's production :D
 
I wonder if the "Over sharp" look is simply the fact that it is 4 freaking K??? :D

And I think the -5 SHARP setting started in the CANON line of cameras, and many of us know why that it. Gah! Those things are ...not good: resolution, morie, etc etc etc. so, softening helped
 
@wwjd
Yeah did more tests today, did close ups the other day, and today..more panoramic outdoor shots.
My tests today confirmed what I saw the other day, I tend to think -2 on sharpness is about as far as I would generally go, and often use 0, I went over and over the footage and time and time again I saw that soft blurring/smudging effect at -5,
I realize that some people really like this and that it works for them...and thats great, but personally I find -2 or even 0...to be closer to what my eyes actually see..(and I rely on them to make a living) so I go with that.

So yeah...as time goes on and 4K becomes more of a standard, I think you will find peoples perceptions of what looks good in terms of detail and so on will change, right now the soft film look is the standard of comparison for many,
and I personally love that look too in certain situations, but in other situations I like the great detail the GH4 delivers and have no desire to make it try to make it something else in those situations.
BTW How is your 4K monitor going? How is your footage looking on that monitor?
 
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I love this monitor, and the footage looks GREAT, although I'm not an epic film maker so it doesn't look pro, but the CAMERA is doing great! Honestly, I would have preferred the new 4096 monitors coming out but my wallet snapped me back to reality: for $600, I have a great 4K monitor. 4096 looks just fine on UHD. Having 4 times the desktop space took some mental adjustment, but it is really nice, especially when running Vegas editor. Another big plus is hooking the camera up to it directly, making adjustments to settings and SEEING the effect live on screen. That doesn't include the effects from compression, but still a great learning tool.

ungraded:
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wwjd said:
I love this monitor, and the footage looks GREAT, although I'm not an epic film maker so it doesn't look pro, but the CAMERA is doing great! Honestly, I would have preferred the new 4096 monitors coming out but my wallet snapped me back to reality: for $600, I have a great 4K monitor. 4096 looks just fine on UHD. Having 4 times the desktop space took some mental adjustment, but it is really nice, especially when running Vegas editor. Another big plus is hooking the camera up to it directly, making adjustments to settings and SEEING the effect live on screen. That doesn't include the effects from compression, but still a great learning tool.
Click to expand...

Looks great!! I love the guys wig too LOL!!
 
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