Sennheiser MKH 50 vs Rode NTG3 - OUTDOORS

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teamjim

Member
Hey. I currently own a Rode NTG3 and generally really like it. I've heard clips of a Sennheiser MKH 50 and it seems like a step in terms of indoor audio. My budget isn't huge for this type of stuff, so ideally id like to sell the NTG3 and replace with the MKH50....

But im thinking - seeing as the MKH 50 is not made for outdoors - is the NTG3 technically BETTER for outdoors?

80% of the usage of this main mic will be INDOORS. So if the MKH 50 is around about the same level as the NTG3 outdoors, id go with my plan, but if its kinda a downgrade due the the pickup pattern not being ideal for outside - id have to re-think.

I dont think its an option having both as budget wont allow

Jim
 
Hi, Jim.

First, it may be helpful to clarify what is commonly misrepresented in which mic is used where. There’s not a “made for indoors” mic, nor a “made for outdoors” mic. What there are, are pickup patterns that behave better in certain situations.

The shotgun mic has an element at its core that is usually a supercardioid. What makes a shotgun mic a shotgun mic is the interference tube, which (the brief version) uses phase cancellation to eliminate sounds that come in from the sides of the mic. This also creates a narrowed pickup pattern in the front, which differs from model to model and is also impacted by the length of the interference tube (the longer the tube, the narrower the pickup response). Of course, there’s still a slight pickup from the rear of the mic, especially in bass frequencies that aren’t filtered out by the interference tube.

The same thing that creates this pickup pattern can also be the mic’s Achilles heel in reflective environments, because reflections that come at the mic from all directions are already out of phase with the direct sound, so the interference tube can’t do its job and the sound becomes muddied. A shotgun mic can work just fine indoors if the room isn’t terribly reverberant, and some shotgun mics are better than others at handling slightly more reflective environments. Likewise, there can be exterior locations where the interference tube is thwarted by reflections. If the location has lots of hard, reflective surfaces, it can be almost like a reverberant interior.

Where shotguns don’t work so well, supercardioids and hypercardioids are popular. They don’t have the phase-cancelling interference tube and capture a much more natural ratio of direct sound in front of the mic to reflected sound in the room. This can be useful for interiors and for exteriors. One other benefit of the smaller supercardioids and hypercardioids for interiors, though, is that their compact sizes allow for working in spaces with less clearance (lower ceilings) and still keeping clear of frame.

Take that for what you will. Honestly, having only one or the other may work for you in most situations, but you’ll still be hindered when you have a supercardioid outdoors and need a little more working distance (where a shotgun comes in handy), or you have a shotgun indoors and the room is just too reflective or you don’t have the headroom to get a longer mic into the action and still clear frame.

I have the NTG-3, and I have the Sennheiser MKH-8060. The NTG-3 stays in its case as a backup, and the 8060 is my go-to shotgun. It’s smaller and a bit more versatile. Plus, it sounds very good and still has enough focus on its pickup pattern to give me ample working distance when I need it. But I have hypercardioids in my kit as well, the AKG CK93, which I use often for interiors. At some point, I’ll probably replace them with the MKH-8050 just to keep some continuity. The NTG-3 is a good mic - don’t get me wrong - but there are better options out there.

You might also take a look at the Sanken CS-M1. Surprisingly inexpensive, it’s also a great-sounding and compact shotgun mic that has a good bit of versatility. Either way, there’s no such thing as a one-mic-fits-all solution. You’ll be better off in the long run with at least two mics in your kit.

And if none of this works in your budget, hang on to your NTG-3 since it is a perfectly good mic for most applications, and perhaps seek a good deal on a used supercardioid or hypercardioid. Good budget options are the Audio Technica 4053b, AKG CK93, and Audix SCX1-HC.
 
hey this was so helpful thank you. Kind of figured this might be the advice, just hoped different haha! The other complication is I was hoping this '1 size fits all' mic would also work on my camera for really basic ambient scratch sound for b-roll - the in-built mic on the c300iii is obviously awful and although a shotgun makes sense it just feels a bit odd wielding one as big as the ntg3 around on my camera haha
 
teamjim said:
The other complication is I was hoping this '1 size fits all' mic would also work on my camera for really basic ambient scratch sound for b-roll - the in-built mic on the c300iii is obviously awful and although a shotgun makes sense it just feels a bit odd wielding one as big as the ntg3 around on my camera haha
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For that, look at the Audio Technica AT875r. Very inexpensive shotgun, smaller and lightweight, that makes a great camera mic.
 
I totally agree with Alex. In my case, have the NTG3, 4053b, and AT875 mentioned. For what I paid for all three, I could have purchased a high end mic of some sort, at the price of versatility. I figured that if I needed better sound than what those mics and some other good quality mid-range mics could supply, I would be hiring an audio pro with premier gear.
 
I boomed a movie with a Sanken CS-3e and it sounded great everywhere, inside & out. I personally own the NTG-3 & 4053b and switch between them as needed but I think the Sanken is a pretty decent all in one mic.
 
The Sanken CS-3e is not an "interference tube" mic (like most shotgun mics), The CS-3e uses multiple capsules to electronically attenuate off-axis sound whereas an interference tube mic uses acoustic ports.
Pros and cons to both.
 
In a lively room, a super cardioid and a short shotgun are both going to sound bad. Maybe the super will sound less bad, but more likely will need to go to a cardioid or omni to "fix" the issue.


Same goes for outdoors. If the mic has to be further than 1 meter from the talent, a short shotgun is going to sound bad too. maybe less bad, but still, at that point might as well get a long shotgun. And if the mic is 12 inches from the subject, a supercardioid is 12 inches away, and a short shotgun is 18inches away, because the pickup capsule is behind the little interference tube, so at times, that slight proximity advantage of a super can outweigh the slight off axis rejection of the short shotgun.



So, choosing between something like a super cardioid and a short shotgun would come down to personal use and preference.



The MKH8060 is an interesting option, because it is so small. Normally a short shotgun is long enough to get unwieldy. With a deadcat fuzzy, they are front heavy. But the MKH8060 mitigates a lot of those issues. A MKH8050 is smaller still. Yet, the MKH50 would still only require a small windscreen (like a tennis ball size) and it has built in low cut and db pad. That means it can work on a boom pole or an on camera mic. and with cameras getting smaller and less feature rich, that means the MKH50 is at the top of the list for camera mics these days, when getting just that "one" mic.


But getting that one mic is like getting that one lens. it just isn't professionally viable. I'd be fine just shooting on one prime lens, but clients and directors always need more options. So, my advice is typically, if you are getting something for work, go to mid tier and get the ones you need. But if you are "just" a camera person that needs occasional audio, then I don't think you'll go wrong getting one good mic. And I'm not sure the advantages of super vs short shotgun are really as big as some might say. At least not when it comes to being an all-rounder. So, if choosing, get the one you like, and the one that makes you want to use it. One isn't going to fix a situation if the other is completely failing anyway.


If being a cinematographer is your job, the choice between a 32mm and a 35mm might be huge, but for others it might not be. A short shotgun is a supercarioid, just with better rejection of higher frequencies coming from the sides. And what does get through, since it is a short interference tube, is less natural sounding. A CMIT5u might have really more natural off axis sound, but it doesn't have as much bite as maybe a MKH416 or Cs3e when it comes to isolation. So, for me, the MKH50 is just that mic I'm not going to dread using ever. If I need anything more, I prefer to have a dedicated sound person along.


I think most mic selection advice for camera people is a bit outdated. When shotguns were popular, it was on larger camera bodies and a preference for long lenses. Now, we have tiny cameras and are using wider lenses close to our subjects, so actually super cardioids often make for a better on camera mic than shotguns. And for other things, clients and producers often prefer the sound of lavs in interviews. The boom is often the "safety" backupmic, incase the lav has issues.


Due to the amount of options and variables, there really is no simple answer. I think the MKH8060 paired with an omni lavelier could get you through a lifetime of professional interviews. But I still opted for the MKH50 because when everything was just right, it sounded nicer to me, and it has the low cut when things aren't going right. But even then, there might be a room and situation where a cheaper mic with a different pickup option works better than either. However, there is a surprising amount of interviews on network TV done with the "wrong" mic, and no one notices. But calling a short shotgun an outdoor mic and a supercardioid an indoor mic is like calling an 85mm the closeup lens and a 75mm the wide establishing lens. Maybe they are more different than that, but I say it to make a point, that they are much closer than indoor/outdoor. Like, You might have a lens that goes. to f1.4 but is soft and suffers from chromatic aberrations, and another lens that goes to an f2 but is sharp. Niether lens is going to help if you need f1.4 sharp, and both are going to look fine a f2. But hey, if you need that f1.4 and don't mind or even like the softness, then yeah, you get the faster lens.
 
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I'd add that the skill of the person aiming is probably even more important. So many people demonstrate booming skills that verge on the ludicrous. Aiming vaguely in the direction, and rarely having headphones on to do the job sort of almost guarantee the classic "shotguns are rubbish indoors" comments. You see these things often on YouTube clips where it's so clear that if the shotgun was a torch, the person speaking would be in the dark!

People also forget that loads of studio sitcoms are shot with cardioids on a Fisher Boom, or at narrowest, a hyper/super. To get separation, these skilled boom ops could use a shotgun, but even with their considerable skill, aiming from their operating position is very tricky. I firmly believe shotguns can do a pretty good job indoors if, and only if you can ensure the aim is firmly on their mouth, and not chest or forehead, or worse (and usual) not them at all, but there reflective wall behind! The no shotguns indoors rule seems to have grown because of the difficulty of doing it properly. The poor sound indoors is when the reflected sound is captured instead of direct sound. Reflections are the noise, the mouth is the signal. If you do an experiment with a shotgun indoors with the on-axis direction being the mouth, you actually get pretty good sound even with hard walls. Move sideways so it just grazes your ear and the subject gets thin on the direct path, and the reflections from the wall behind ramp up significantly. Outside, if you miss the target, the thin sound can be brought up and used. Inside, It cannot.
 
Rick R said:
The Sanken CS-3e is not an "interference tube" mic (like most shotgun mics), The CS-3e uses multiple capsules to electronically attenuate off-axis sound whereas an interference tube mic uses acoustic ports.
Pros and cons to both.
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What are the pros and cons? The samples I've heard from the CS-3 are uniformly excellent, but I'm curious to know what its weaknesses are.
 
Yeah, the MKH8000 series is pretty great. There was something definitely different between the sounds of the MKH8050 and the MKH50 when I tested them, and that could push one towards the 8000 series. if getting into a whole system, I think the modularity of the 8000's offset the additional cost, but if just buying one mic, then the 50 can save a few notes.

I did a lot of comparing years ago, but also got into testing out hyper/supers last year again. My impressions of the top SDC's for film/TV:

Schoeps MK41
Has a lot of presence and the S's and such are very audible, but it somehow pulls it off without being fatiguing. To me, that is the sort of illusive quality of this mic that keeps it as the first choice for speech. Good directionality with a smooth and natural fall off. Very clean with a forward and sweet pure sound, all at the same time. Some mics are more flat or neutral and some are more hyped and exciting, but the Schoeps 41 seems to find that niche. And they smooth out with age apparently, so no big deal there, they are plenty exciting to start with.

MKH50
Probably the best reach of all the super/hypers. It does not roll off as gently as the Schoeps MK41, but certainly has a nice natural off axis sound. At normal distances, the 50 sounds flat and natural without losing presence. But can get really dark sounding at closer ranges. Like Zeiss super speeds turn into a difference lens wide open, the MKH50 feels like a mic that changes personality quite a bit depending how you use it, yet always maintains a pleasant and stable sound. The low cut makes the mic sharpen up, and the presence seems to jump out a bit more. Only slightly more fatiguing than the Schoeps to my ears, but still perhaps nicer than the Neuman KM183 SDC or whatever, I think. The only real draw back of the MKH50 is for boom operators going through doorways. The other modular systems seem better fitted for low clearance booming. Not quite an issue for on-camera mics. But yeah, the MKH50 maintains a neutral natural sound without being boring.

DPA 4018
Likely the most technical of the bunch here. At its base sound, it is really flat. Helps control siblance, but also sounds like it is sitting back a bit. Not really an issue since the mic is really quiet and has good reach. and for an extra cost, once can get a high pass filter for the mic, which perhaps mics it more exciting for dialogue. But I feel this is a mic for those that either hate sibilance, or really love shaping the sound in the mix or post. The mini preamp for DPA's modular system is small, similar to the CMC1 and the MKH8000 parts, and so it become the only ruler flat mic that can handle ceiling surfing that well.

MKH8050
Has a modern sound. I feel it does sort of make the ears go "wow" right away. But not in an overhyped way, more in a "wow, that is a good mic" way. really detailed and open sounding. These things are so tiny. I slightly preferred the 50 over the 8050. It was as if, the MK41, 4018, and the 50 all sounded equally as good, but they just all had something they did that was special, and the 8000 series gets lost in the fray. Well, I am being a bit judgey there. I just felt the other mics offers something really tangible, and the MKH8050 was just sort of there and good, but wasn't really pulling ahead in any way. It is more expensive then the 50, and not as unique as the DPA or Schoeps. And I actually prefer the characteristics of the 50 being slightly more directional for a "one mic" situation. However, where the 8000 starts pulling ahead is when one gets into two or more mics, then there is something more interesting. Like getting an MKH8060 and a MKH8050 then one has a great "indoor/outdoor" setup. And one can add saving buy only needing to purchase one high pass module for the two mics.


And a budget one:
Audio Technica 4053b, was a solid mic. I used it years ago when shooting passion projects and did not want to bring out a Schoeps or Sennheiser. I think with good mixing technique, this mic does the job. The sound was good, nothing particularly stand out. I never fell in love with it, but I also could not find fault in it really. If I was really limited by budget, and had to build out a sound package, Audio Technica is a great place to start, especially buying used. But I was not a fan, after using better mics. The take away was, that the Audio Technica’s could do the job. there is a confidence in knowning that. much like shooting on DZO or Sigma, one could shoot a whole film, and if done right no one would be the wiser. Something to knowing that.
 
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James0b57 said:
And a budget one:
Audio Technica 4053b, was a solid mic. I used it years ago when shooting passion projects and did not want to bring out a Schoeps or Sennheiser. I think with good mixing technique, this mic does the job. The sound was good, nothing particularly stand out. I never fell in love with it, but I also could not find fault in it really. If I was really limited by budget, and had to build out a sound package, Audio Technica is a great place to start, especially buying used. But I was not a fan, after using better mics.
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Another one to consider in that range is the AKG Blueline CK93. I really like what this mic has to offer as a hypercardioid. I believe another member has one listed for sale in the Marketplace right now for a very reasonable price. EDIT: looks like that one sold.
 
Alex H. said:
Another one to consider in that range is the AKG Blueline CK93. I really like what this mic has to offer as a hypercardioid. I believe another member has one listed for sale in the Marketplace right now for a very reasonable price.
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always heard that was the penultimate budget mic. great price they have it going for. looks like someone just scooped it. i’ve not tried it out yet. was it discontinued?
 
Not sure about it being 'penultimate' (!), but I would also second the AKG CK93. I've used one for years and it is really very good. Plenty of pros use/used to use them. The other capsules are fine too, and the bayonet fitting is quick and robust compared to screw-in capsules. You can still buy CK93s new.

Cheers,

Roland
 
Throwback said:
Not sure about it being 'penultimate' (!), but I would also second the AKG CK93. I've used one for years and it is really very good. Plenty of pros use/used to use them. The other capsules are fine too, and the bayonet fitting is quick and robust compared to screw-in capsules. You can still buy CK93s new.

Cheers,

Roland
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i think on the list of budget SDC for dialogue recording the AKG has got to be close to the top of the list, though, i’m assuming there is something better out there. penultimate is sort of a word that has fallen out of use, and i was having fun with it. just meant that the AKG is like next to the final best low budget mic. though, i’ve not use it, just saying that goong off forum reputation.

nice to hear the AKG caps are still being sold
 
Seems the Neumann KM185 only occasionally gets brought up, but some people like that one over the Schoeps/Senn options. and it sits at $900 or so USD, so sits right between the lower end and the ultra high end prices. from the little i’ve played with them, and some replicas, and demos, i’d think they’d be great. i forget what the reason was for them not being popular as a Film Broadcast option.
 
James0b57 said:
nice to hear the AKG caps are still being sold
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The CK93 is still available, at least through B&H. I cannot seem to find anyone stocking any of the other capsules. Last I checked, they were still listed on AKG’s website, all as part of the Blue Line ecosystem, but a lot of vendors list all the other capsules as discontinued.
 
Alex H. said:
The CK93 is still available, at least through B&H. I cannot seem to find anyone stocking any of the other capsules. Last I checked, they were still listed on AKG’s website, all as part of the Blue Line ecosystem, but a lot of vendors list all the other capsules as discontinued.
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good info!

ever sonce i sold off all but a few of my mics, i’ve been considering adding a few again. this thread has me nostalgic for sound recording. like i completely miss the sound of a CMC441 or a u87ai going to tape.
 
Alex H. said:
The CK93 is still available, at least through B&H. I cannot seem to find anyone stocking any of the other capsules.
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Hi Alex,

The AKG websites are very confusing, but suggest that most, if not all, of the Blueline series mics have been discontinued. That said, it's easy enough to find vendors of most of the Blueline capsules here in the UK/Europe: as well as CK93, the CK91 (cardioid), CK92 (omni) and CK98 (shotgun) are readily available. The CK94 (fig 8) has definitely been discontinued and has been hard to find new here for the last year or so.

Cheers,

Roland
 
Alex H. said:
Another one to consider in that range is the AKG Blueline CK93. I really like what this mic has to offer as a hypercardioid. I believe another member has one listed for sale in the Marketplace right now for a very reasonable price.
Click to expand...

I demoed that mic years and years ago. It was rather nice. But I recall it having a low output. Not a problem if you're using a mixer/recorder with clean preamps (such as those on Sound Devices, Zaxcom, and Sonosax gear), but could be an issue with not-as-good. That's something to double check... If the mic's specs (esp. sensitivity) look like they'll work for you, you'll probably like the mic.

But I think it's just about for sure discontinued, though there is some product still in the channel. Last year Harman cut A LOT of jobs (in the hundreds) and closed AKG's headquarters, where their microphone and headphone division was based. Harman is continuing the brand, but it looks like it'll focus on broader consumer-ish products.

Some of the AKG people started Austrian Audio, but right now they have a couple studio mics (kinda like AKG C414), and a couple sets of headphones. I don't think (but don't know) if they'll bring back something like the Blueline mics. Bummer. https://austrian.audio
 
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