Sennheiser Lav? Omni or Cardoid

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I'm looking to get another wireless lav. I currently have a G2 with Omni but I've been debating if I should be using the cardoid instead. I use these mostly for interviews and occasional convention center environments where it can be pretty noisy. Would love some feedback on pros and cons. I like my omni but I definitely get more background noise that I'd like sometimes.

 

[Alex H.]

Omni.

Cardioid lavs are generally useless, except for certain live stage applications. If the person turns his/her head at any time, the voice goes off-axis and trails off into the background. The key to minimizing background sound in places like that is mic placement. Like any mic, the closer to the source, the higher source:background ratio.

While a little unorthodox (you still don't see them very often), you might even consider a headset mic like the Countryman E6. It puts the mic capsule right next to the mouth and keeps it there, for the best voice:background ratio you can get. Of course, it looks much different on camera... which is part of why they aren't go-to mics for on-camera dialog in most situations.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Great info. Thanks!

 

[dano]

I'm looking to get another wireless lav. I currently have a G2 with Omni but I've been debating if I should be using the cardoid instead. I use these mostly for interviews and occasional convention center environments where it can be pretty noisy. Would love some feedback on pros and cons. I like my omni but I definitely get more background noise that I'd like sometimes.

Mostly hearing the same thing about cardioid lavs that most have (ie - don't use em, go omni) but this piece definitely illustrates that they do have a use. May be something good to have in the kit to have in your bag of tricks (if you have that luxury).

http://www.televisionsound.com/madeinamerica.html

 

[Bruce Watson]

Mostly hearing the same thing about cardioid lavs that most have (ie - don't use em, go omni) but this piece definitely illustrates that they do have a use. May be something good to have in the kit to have in your bag of tricks (if you have that luxury).

http://www.televisionsound.com/madeinamerica.html

In this instance a cardioid was a good choice. But remember that the talent was highly trained. She knew enough to keep from turning her head away from the mic and getting out of the sweet spot.

Most of us don't have the luxury of highly trained talent, nor have the need to film in really noisy environments. For the vast majority of uses and conditions, an omni will outperform a cardioid lav.

 

[dano]

In this instance a cardioid was a good choice. But remember that the talent was highly trained. She knew enough to keep from turning her head away from the mic and getting out of the sweet spot.

Most of us don't have the luxury of highly trained talent, nor have the need to film in really noisy environments. For the vast majority of uses and conditions, an omni will outperform a cardioid lav.

I don't think I'd characterize the talent as "highly trained", maybe coached, sure. In a loud environment like that, to get usable sound, it might take some direction to talent to make it work. But still - as I said, omni for almost all (99.9% even), but a cardioid might be good to have if you have the luxury. I have plenty of do-dads and items that I've only used once or twice but was VERY grateful to have on hand that time, justified it's cost.

But you are right Bruce, given one option...got to go omni.

 

[Bruce Watson]

I don't think I'd characterize the talent as "highly trained", maybe coached, sure. In a loud environment like that, to get usable sound, it might take some direction to talent to make it work. But still - as I said, omni for almost all (99.9% even), but a cardioid might be good to have if you have the luxury. I have plenty of do-dads and items that I've only used once or twice but was VERY grateful to have on hand that time, justified it's cost.

But you are right Bruce, given one option...got to go omni.

Meh -- my bad. I thought I'd already seen that segment. I was thinking that it was Diane Sawyer doing the talking -- that's what I mean when I said trained talent. But I went back to look again and sure enough, either I hadn't looked closely or I didn't remember it correctly because she wasn't in the field footage at all. Either way, my bad.

But my point, such as it was, is that if your talent is moving, especially if rotating the head while shoulders stay in place, a cardioid usually just isn't a good choice for a lav. I'm thinking of a lady I've filmed doing some product demos. She moves around a lot, and doesn't seem to get that she's wearing a mic and how to treat it despite a fair amount of coaching. She talks with her hands a fair amount and occasionally slaps the mic on her chest (makes me jump every time), and turns and talks over her shoulder some. Definitely not ready for a cardioid! ;-)

 

[dano]

Meh -- my bad. I thought I'd already seen that segment. I was thinking that it was Diane Sawyer doing the talking -- that's what I mean when I said trained talent. But I went back to look again and sure enough, either I hadn't looked closely or I didn't remember it correctly because she wasn't in the field footage at all. Either way, my bad.

But my point, such as it was, is that if your talent is moving, especially if rotating the head while shoulders stay in place, a cardioid usually just isn't a good choice for a lav. I'm thinking of a lady I've filmed doing some product demos. She moves around a lot, and doesn't seem to get that she's wearing a mic and how to treat it despite a fair amount of coaching. She talks with her hands a fair amount and occasionally slaps the mic on her chest (makes me jump every time), and turns and talks over her shoulder some. Definitely not ready for a cardioid! ;-)

No worries! Head turns would be the killer with the cardioid lavs for sure...definitely a specialty application mic. I'm REALLY curious to hear the new Countryman hypercardioid lav. I assume the same sort of issue with head turns?

Countryman B2D - http://www.countryman.com/store/product_b2d.asp

Would be nice to have a lav work in noisier environments without having to put it up near their throat (lending to issues other than noise).

 

[John Willett]

I'm looking to get another wireless lav. I currently have a G2 with Omni but I've been debating if I should be using the cardoid instead. I use these mostly for interviews and occasional convention center environments where it can be pretty noisy. Would love some feedback on pros and cons. I like my omni but I definitely get more background noise that I'd like sometimes.

Stick with omni - cardioids are pretty useless.

They tend to be more noisy and suffer from drop-out as the speaker moves his/her head.

You can improve feedback by moving the omni closer to the mouth.

The ratio is only 1.7 - IE: a cardioid at 17cm picks up the same sound as an omni at 10cm - and as an omni does not suffer from proximity effect you don't get a change in the bass as you move it closer.

So either stick to the omni or get a head-worn mic.

 

[Rick R]

I would think the new Countryman B2D was primarily designed for usage were gain before feedback would be an issue. Theater for instance, or other situations were a PA system would be used.

 

[dano]

I would think the new Countryman B2D was primarily designed for usage were gain before feedback would be an issue. Theater for instance, or other situations were a PA system would be used.

Likely Rick but their claim below sure does makes me want to see how it performs in noisy environments:"The tight hypercardioid pattern gives the B2D an extra 6-10 dB of headroom compared to an omni lav, meaning less problems with feedback, ambient noise, room rumble, and phase cancellations with multiple mics."

 

[John Willett]

I would think the new Countryman B2D was primarily designed for usage were gain before feedback would be an issue. Theater for instance, or other situations were a PA system would be used.

It probably is - but you do not get any real advantage.

You need to keep a directional further away and you still get drop-out as the speaker moves the head.

The rear of the mic. is pointing towards the body, which is absorbent anyway, and there is very little attenuation where it matters.

As you can move an omni closer you can sort out any feedback problems this way.

I am sure cardioid tie mics are there more because people think they want them, rather than being actually needed, because many people do nut fully understand how mics work and the effects of the inverse-square law.

 

[dano]

It probably is - but you do not get any real advantage.You need to keep a directional further away and you still get drop-out as the speaker moves the head.The rear of the mic. is pointing towards the body, which is absorbent anyway, and there is very little attenuation where it matters.As you can move an omni closer you can sort out any feedback problems this way.I am sure cardioid tie mics are there more because people think they want them, rather than being actually needed, because many people do nut fully understand how mics work and the effects of the inverse-square law.

Not sure you can go by absolutes 100% of the time. As Thom's work illustrated cardioids have a use, very specialized yes, but effective in this instance. Have also heard of specific shows using card lavs on beaches to deal with ocean noise. I think folks out in the field like Thom having found uses for mics like this would beg to differ about not understanding how they work. If it sounds good then it works.