stefanhuberfilms
Veteran
lol because i don't mean to offend anyone and posts are ofte been understood wrong - haha i didn't even recognize that 5 sorries above^^
Sending the fs700 to sony for upgrade
- Thread starter Michael Erlewine
- Start date
Anyone who is upset about the 4K solution had their head in the clouds. From day one there were forum posts of people saying "it's 4K ready but for all we know, you could spend as much as you did on the body for the external recorders". I knew going into it that 4K would be spendy, but it's nice that the camera has the ability (for rental, etc). Hell, even buying Sony's solution you're spending less than what people pay for a C300 body and getting 4K RAW.
SergeSmArt
Well-known member
Canon C-300 DO NOT produce any RAW at all
rogar-BigGrin(DBG) ... I knew from the beginning, that RAW gonna be very expensive to shoot and edit, even if you get 4K RAW camera from Uncle Sam
... and I'm not surprise with it, just think Sony should offer some discount for users who get FS-700 on the very beginning... here what is it about :
Not bad... for my taste: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Image3.jpg
http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Image4.jpg
I push some in saturation and contrast.. in case to see how it work ....
evilthought
Well-known member
I don't remember it this way last year. Vast majority of people were speculation that 4K upgrade (and the recorders) would bring the price close to $20,000. People were also speculating that 4K won't work with any third-party recorders. If anything, the cheaper CD solution came as a surprise.
I don't where you are getting the idea that people were buyimg FS700 as a cheap 4K ready camera. Go back and read the old threads.
Guys, This is such a great community and we have agreat camera in our hand. Calm down, I think some us are just a bit frustrated that we haven't seen much footage of what 2K/4K images from the FS700. I think, yes it is expensive with the upgrade with OD7Q or the SONY path to get 2k4k. But lets not forget this camera has serve it purpose interm of the quality we have all been getting. The options are endless with this camera. I have check Ebay and a few website and I can tell you this camera is selling quiet well. Come July, for those who can afford the Oydessy7Q to go with they FS700 would be quiet happy if they images are as stunning as sergesmart as shown
I know Sony might have mislead a few people about 4K ready camera etc. But for $8,000 with 240FPS slow-motion 1080P, great in low light, speedbooster, great for kind of jobs. I say we should all be pretty happy that 4K is a options for those who want it. I can see the frustration are boiling for most of us because we have to wait for the firmware upgrade. If We have waited almost a year for 4K. I think another more month won't be that bad.
When I first bought the camera. There was only about 20 video from the FS700 now there are almost 5000 video of the FS700. It hasn't even been a year yet. I don't see many second hand FS700 for sell on EBAY also. I think for those who can wait should wait a bit longer. My works is pretty crap but I have people sending message almost every week telling they cannot wait to buy this camera.
I know Sony might have mislead a few people about 4K ready camera etc. But for $8,000 with 240FPS slow-motion 1080P, great in low light, speedbooster, great for kind of jobs. I say we should all be pretty happy that 4K is a options for those who want it. I can see the frustration are boiling for most of us because we have to wait for the firmware upgrade. If We have waited almost a year for 4K. I think another more month won't be that bad.
When I first bought the camera. There was only about 20 video from the FS700 now there are almost 5000 video of the FS700. It hasn't even been a year yet. I don't see many second hand FS700 for sell on EBAY also. I think for those who can wait should wait a bit longer. My works is pretty crap but I have people sending message almost every week telling they cannot wait to buy this camera.
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chromeboy007
Well-known member
I wonder if you can use the S-Log2 from just the hardware upgrade alone.
SergeSmArt
Well-known member
yes.. I think S-Log-2 will be available in HD internal recording, not ONLY for RAW on external recorders... and I hope there will be 10-bit instead of 8 bit
chromeboy007
Well-known member
yes.. I think S-Log-2 will be available in HD internal recording, not ONLY for RAW on external recorders... and I hope there will be 10-bit instead of 8 bit
Great if it is indeed true. This alone is definitely worth the few hundred bucks of upgrade!
paulcurtis
Veteran
I'm trying to get hold of the original footage for that 4K sequence, i'm speaking to the guy that shot it. If i am allowed a few frames i'll post the RAWs.
Of course you must also remember that to actually work with 4K files means a fairly heavy investment on the post side. You're either dealing with 4K uncompressed DPX or Sonys linear RAW format. Both are very heavy to work with. Storage, processing and network would need to deal with a massive increase in size. I think any moaning about a $500 dollar upgrade is kinda moot.
cheers
Paul
Of course you must also remember that to actually work with 4K files means a fairly heavy investment on the post side. You're either dealing with 4K uncompressed DPX or Sonys linear RAW format. Both are very heavy to work with. Storage, processing and network would need to deal with a massive increase in size. I think any moaning about a $500 dollar upgrade is kinda moot.
cheers
Paul
chromeboy007
Well-known member
Dang!
Marino215
Well-known member
Not to 2nd guess you but can you share the link to the reports regarding 10-bit etc. thanks
epsom salt
Well-known member
and by, "head in the clouds" you mean, "believed sony's marketing"? yes it's expensive, but because sony bulls*%tted everyone about the specs they now have to add an even higher cost and dysfunctional form factor to an already expensive and awkward solution. i understand that we were speculating on this forum about the cost/specs ect. but at the end of the day it was just that, speculation. why would you want to be the, "i told you so" guy anyway? yay, you were right.... everybody loses. i can't speak for anyone else but i read the spec sheet from sony and b&h and then bought the camera based on those claims. its obvious that they've changed their story about what the camera actually has under the hood and that $2300 to make the camera 4k ready, is coming out of your pocket. maybe some people have checks coming from daddy but i have to earn that $2300 before i can spend it on my fs700. and i can think of 100 other things that money would be better used for than on the undisclosed parts that are supposed to already be in the camera when i bought it...
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stefanvanjaarsveld
Active member
S-log2 will not be worthless in 8-bit...have you see the test vids? Considering that it will bring much improved highlights and remove highlight fringing (as per freiheit's videos), I think it will be the best part of this upgrade and be a massive improvement for a lot of people.
Where are you hearing that it's $2300 to make it "4K ready"? If you're referring to the cost of the firmware/hardware upgrade from Sony, current signs are pointing to it being $135-270. If you're referring to the cost of the external recorder (such as the Odyssey7Q) then you are referring to "4K capturing camera", not "4K ready". The "4K ready" element meant that it had a 4K sensor but needed more to be able to capture 4K, that you wouldn't be able to record 4K internally. From day one the camera was going to need external equipment to capture 4K output.
And everyone is splitting hairs about the "hardware" portion of the upgrade. Yes, I get that the downtime of sending it in is a pain and I would have loved to load firmware on my own... but with the cost so low, what is the difference? When the F3 got S-Log, the upgrade was over $3800. For firmware loaded on a SxS card worth about $1200.
I guess I'm just wondering why everyone is freaking out about the hardware portion of the FW/HW upgrade. Is it just a matter of principle? What is so important about some extra little bits that you can't even use anyway already being in the camera prior to the software upgrade? Is it a matter of being without your camera for a few days or is it just an extra element to scream "Sony lied!!!!" about?
epsom salt
Well-known member
ok so you genuinely don't know? it's because it appears sony did lie... sony said the fs700 will shoot 4k via firmware upgrade and r5 recorder. it will need a hardware upgrade $130-500, and a separate interface costing $2,000. so those 2 extra costs/ pieces of hardware/ burdens that come along with that will make the camera "4k ready". total is around $2300, does that clear it up for you?
so yes, i'm upset i have to send my camera in and wait for the hardware upgrade. i'm upset sony gouged the f3 owners a few years back. im upset sony was either accidentally or maliciously wrong about how we would get 4k out of the fs. but it doesn't matter what their intentions where? because either way it's more money to them and more headache and less money for me. from what i've read not one person has asked for 4k to happen internally... not one. not one person has said it's the worst camera on the market. from what i've read in this forum the owners of this cam just want what sony advertised ever since we all bought the machine. post whatever you want, but if i could respectfully ask you, to please do not say, "but it's better than canon or black magic". nobody cares because this isn't a thread about those cameras. please don't put words in peoples mouths saying, "you just want it for free" or "you want 4k to record internally". that hasn't been the case and to be honest those types of distractions are drawing attention away from what is happening here. if a sony rep comes on here i'd just like to say... i'd like what was advertised please. for a long list of reasons but none of which actually matter. because it's sony's responsibility to own up to the promises that sony makes about their products. i don't hate sony, i own one of their cameras and i'd like to get what was clearly specified when i bought it.
paulcurtis
Veteran
At the expense of shadow and midtone performance. You can't get around the fact that 8 bit is 256 levels. SLog is just a different distribution with more in the highlights, but that extra range is taken from elsewhere. 10 bit is considered the minimum for log curves to work.
AFAIK Slog is a monitoring tool because when recording 12 bit RAW there's very little in the way of exposure tools to help you see what you're getting - especially in the highlights. The Slog monitoring means that you can see the more sensitive highlight areas in better detail.
If you're going for high key blown out look then 8 bit in Slog will be much better than you can get now. But if you're attempting to get a full range, including shadows and midtones then you need to be mindful that you're stealing range from elsewhere to get the highlights.
cheers
Paul
chromeboy007
Well-known member
Dumb question I asked.
Yes. This guy tested S-Log2 with internal AVCHD (and ProRes422 with Atomos), no raw. And you can see an improvement from Cine4.
https://vimeo.com/67727948
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Friends,
I have been away from this forum since I was at Cine Gear Expo and also traveling after Cine Gear.
I have spoken with Juan Martinez about the upgrade program.
1. The FS700 will need to be sent to your appropriate Sony Service Center.
2. The Sony Service Center will bill you for their normal hourly rate for installing the hardware upgrade and the firmware upgrade.
This is expected to be around $400 (US). I have no idea what the rate will be in other areas of the world.
3. The actual hardware itself and the firmware release will be free, but their will be an installation charge, as noted above.
4. If one purchases the Sony recording solution, the interface and the R5 recorder, then the upgrade will be free.
5. If one purchases our Odyssey7Q, then the fee in Item 2 above will apply. Please note that we will not need the Sony interface unit.
6. I do not have current information as to exactly when the Hardware and Firmware Upgrades will be available at the Sony Service Centers.
I hope this helps.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
It's indeed pointless to compare the FS700 4k solution to other products on the market as a way to justify the unexpected $400 hardware upgrade and $2k interface. In the original FS700 press release, the key sentence was "Sony is planning a future firmware upgrade that will enable the NEX-FS700 to output 4K bit-stream data over 3G HD-SDI when used with an optional Sony 4K recorder." What's happened is indeed arguably different from they promised, but it's also arguable whether they delivered more or less than the promise. They didn't promise 4K raw over SDI, and they didn't promise a third-party solution either. Nor did they promise that their own solution wouldn't be a bazooka-shaped ergonomic nightmare. Often all these complaints, some more legitimate than others, have been unhelpfully conflated into the one-liner that Sony "lied."
Quite apart from the reasonably discuss-able questions, I don't see why anyone should presume that a corporation acts as a morally accountable agent. Sony can and will fudge their statements and "upset" you again and again as long as they can afford to, financially and legally. If I think about it, I'm also upset (but not really) that underpaid workers harvest the raw materials for and assemble my camcorders... But I'm not going to start a thread about that. The weeks-long complaining here is in itself pointless and irrelevant because it won't change Sony's decision about the FS700. I also sincerely doubt it'll have any effect on Sony's future behavior.