Sending the fs700 to sony for upgrade

Dan Keaton said:
Dear Friends,

While the Odyssey7Q is currently limited to recording 4K in uncompressed at 30 fps, as opposed to recording 4K Raw at 60 fps, there is no technical limitation in the Odyssey7Q that prevents this.

This is restricted by our written agreement with Sony and we will abide by this limitation as long as this restriction is in effect.
In fact, we are honored to be working this closely with Sony.

So, for now, the Sony Interface + R5 recorder has an advantage when one wants to record 4K Raw, and when one wants to record 4K at 60 fps.

For 2K, both units, ours and Sony's can both record 2K Raw up to 240 fps.

Our advantages are that we provide a 7.7" diagonal OLED Monitor, with great image analysis tools, Focus Assist, Waveform Monitor, RGB Parade, Histogram, Color Vectorscope, Zebras, Onion Skinning and more, in a 1.2 pound system that can be positioned anywhere where one wants to mount a monitor.

And our overall cost is substantially less.

We are working on providing samples as soon as possible. We loaned out an upgraded FS700 + Odyssey7Q recently just for that purpose.

As soon as we can post the files, I will make a post on this forum.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

Thanks Dan. What a great recorder. One question if I may. Does the odysseyQ have an internal fan? Reason I ask is when I mount my shotgun other recorders I've used (as a monitor) I pick up fan noise. Usually I just put the recorder towards the rear and never have any issues. It would be nice to use the device as a monitor for run and gun shots if that's possible. Thanks

Best,
Anthony
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear Justin,

Our Odyssey7Q with our extra cost option that supports the FS700,
and two of our SSD's, one can record 2K Raw, in Cinema DNG,
in 12-Bit Linear, at up to 240 frames per second, continuously (until the SSD's are full).

And we can record 4K, uncompressed, in DPX file format, in 12-Bit Linear, up to 30 frames per second.

Maybe later we will be able to record 4K Raw, in 12-Bit Linear, up to 60 frames per second,
but we will need approval from Sony before we can accomplish this.

You did not mention whether the 120 fps was in 2K or 4k.

We can certainly record 2K Raw, in Cinema DNG, in 12-Bit Linear, at 120 fps, to just one of our SSD's.

Background Info:

The upgraded FS700's maximum frame rate in 4K is 60 fps.


I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

Hi Dan

Apologies, I misled on the "foregoing 120fps in RAW" comment. I meant no "burst" 120 4K RAW, but I still think your CD Q7 option is fantastic, and a 7.7" diagonal screen is a super bonus.
I personally think RAW is a bit overrated and prefer the camera/recorder doing the de-bayering so I don't have to and I can skip a laborious step. Log 12bit 444 uncompressed is plenty and all we need IMHO.

Thanks Dan, you have been patient, informative and quick to respond. If your response is indicative of the policies of Convergent Design as a whole, I think the company is great.

I have begged the re-sellers here in South Africa to pre order me a 7Q for my F35, but I have yet to receive any confirmation of my place in the que, and I fear I might have to wait longer than I should.
Is there any way I can have peice of mind I will receive a 7Q in a timely fashion when it finally is released?

Many Thanks
 
KINOKS said:
Evilthought I appreciate you playing the Sony advocate in this thread for us to be able to discuss this but really you can stop it now. Epsom salt has a point.

And just to be clear how cheaper is the CDs option from Sony's? I don't think that there is such a difference. Is it? I haven't been up to date with the prices, but Dan's last post saying that they will try to make things as affordable as possible kinda reashures me a little that it might not be 6k+ for the whole thing.
Click to expand...

from what i've gathered prices are in the ball park of $6000 for cd vs $11000 for sony's 4k solution. both of these options can be rented for cheaper.

and my apologies dan if i insulted the abilities of your very useful tool in my discussion with evil thought. i only meant to say, that spec wise, it's not able to do 4k raw at 60fps or 120fps bursts. but i am very grateful that you've come to sony's aid and made the 7q.
and while i have your attention, i was wondering if you had an option for the higher frame rates of 960 and 480fps? so, might there be a recording option that would boost the quality of those frame rates with the 7q?
 
ade4all said:
if they weren't so unpleasant in their manner I would have guessed evilthought works for Sony - this lashing out at anyone who dare question anything regarding Sony has been going on for quite a while on this forum....I suggest you just ignore the evilthought
it would seem Sony does have a case to answer here - am not sure how you go about getting any straightforward answers from Sony though.....
Click to expand...

The point is that all these whining would have been justified if the hardware upgrade was expensive, and/or there was no third-party option for recorder.
 
evilthought said:
The point is that all these whining would have been justified if the hardware upgrade was expensive, and/or there was no third-party option for recorder.
Click to expand...

No and wrong. What has most of us saying WTH is the fact you need the hardware update (of course were happy it's cheap) and this extra Sony interface unit for 2 grand nobody saw coming. It's an extra step, a big hassle and not exactly what Sony said from the beginning. They said recorder. Not recorder and interface unit, only recorder. Argument being Sony wasn't forthright from the beginning. They protected the fs700 by hiding that info knowing a large percentage of folks would be saying, no thanks. We have the CD Odyssey, they're a great company so 12-bit raw 2k is great frame rates and all and the 4k seems to make the most sense instead of RAW. Can't wait to see the images soon. And I have to ask evil thought, do you even own the camera? I'm just curious why you couldn't at least admit you see our frustration.
 
Marino215 said:
We have the CD Odyssey, .
Click to expand...

You don't have Odyssey by magic. Sony licensed FS700 RAW to CD . Sony didn't have to do that. If there was Sony-only solution, you could then complain (rightfully) about the " interface unit". Sony obviously didn't want to make FS700 only recorder, so they had to make F55/F5 recorder work. That's the reason for " interface unit", but it's a non-issue as Sony licensed FS700 RAW to third-party makers.
 
Marino215 said:
Not to 2nd guess you but can you share the link to the reports regarding 10-bit etc. thanks
Click to expand...
see post no. 301 in this thread...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?305725-4K-will-require-hardware-update/page31

Apparently, the HD-SDI compressed output of the FS700 is limited to 8 bit word embedded in a 10 bit word, while the proposed RAW output will be 12-bit. Threrefore, any compression performed within the FS700 will be output, both to the onboard AVCHD and the HD-SDI port, will be 8-bit(perhaps packed in a 10-bit). However, C-D may be able to take the 12-bit RAW output and compress it to 10-bit DNxHD or "another popular codec", processed within the Odyssey. AFAIK, 10-bit 444 requires WAY too much disk storage space to be practical for most users.

And the REAL downside to this realization is that any s-log profiles output from the camera imply in-camera compression....and, therefore 8-bit processing. What good is 8-bit S-log? none, I say.
 
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Dan Keaton said:
We have working, at this time, great focus assist (3 modes with various options), waveform monitor, RGB Parade, Zebras, histogram, and color vectorscope.

We have a few enhancements to make on the above features, such as adding the graticule and zooming on the color vectorscope.

(The graticule is the fixed pattern, displayed on the color vectorscope that show where each color is supposed to be.)

As soon as possible we will start working on the Onion Skinning feature.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

i can't wait to get your OD7Q ! so excited!!

and Mr. Adam Wilt already mentioned that :
One of the pleasures of the Odyssey7Q is its enhanced focus-assist mode—when shooting 4K, focus is critical, and the Odyssey’s focus assist is the best I’ve seen to date
http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sony-nex-fs700-in-the-raw.html

cooool!!!
 
evilthought said:
You don't have Odyssey by magic. Sony licensed FS700 RAW to CD . Sony didn't have to do that. If there was Sony-only solution, you could then complain (rightfully) about the " interface unit". Sony obviously didn't want to make FS700 only recorder, so they had to make F55/F5 recorder work. That's the reason for " interface unit", but it's a non-issue as Sony licensed FS700 RAW to third-party makers.
Click to expand...
ya, we understand the reason for the hardware, we don't understand why they promised something different from the start...

people aren't upset about the interface because it's the only option for 4k.... we're upset because it's the only option to get 4k from sony's recorder/ it's expensive/ and was hidden when they started selling the camera. cd will offer, spec wise, something that's unable to do 4k at 60fps or 120fps. big thank you to cd for offering their solution as it appears to be the most reasonable and cost effective. smaller thank you to evil thought for telling people how they should feel, and implying those who disagree with him, well, believe in magic.... sony promised 4k via fw and r5... and can't deliver.

i've gone back and looked at your post history further back than recent threads and you appear to be at the very least a sony fanboy if not an employee of the company. and because your real name isn't on the account, you can be as rude as you want to people without consequence to yourself sony. im not going to ignore your bias opinions as im actually pretty interested in what other justifications you make next. and of course the so very edgy and evil way you present them to us all. and since we can't get a line with sony but have evil thought, if you'd be so kind et, please as to ask your manager, "why is sony off the hook from their original promise to deliver 4k via r5 and firmware"? thanx buddy, looking forward to your colorfully condescending reply.
 
I posted at the outset that Sony's statement about the future of the FS-700 was a bizarre marketing plan. Salesmen shouldn't make promises and expect their engineering department to keep them. All I was looking forward to for sure, was not having send the camera back, which is an expense, consumes time, and exposes the camera to loss and damage in transit. Sony has not apologized for this officially to my knowledge, so not addressing that is cause for less respect for Sony now. And anything Juan says at any show has no credibility any more as far as I am concerned.
 
Exactly and my (our) original point was if Sony said from the beginning about needing a $2,000 interface unit along with their $5000 recorder it would've made me think twice about the fs700. In all my years a recorder was a recorder. Never would I have imagined we would need (at an extra cost) the interface unit. Forget cost, the thing is huge. Hey I'm grateful for the CD option, Sony just took me by surprise with their shady marketing tactics. Seems as though many of us are on the same page. Hopefully Sony is listening. Thanks
 
We're looking at making a FS700 purchase and just stumbled on this thread. If Sony misled/misrepresented with their marketing, wouldn't this be a good time for class action? Not trying to stir the pot...just saying.
 
cuervo said:
see post no. 301 in this thread...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?305725-4K-will-require-hardware-update/page31

Apparently, the HD-SDI compressed output of the FS700 is limited to 8 bit word embedded in a 10 bit word, while the proposed RAW output will be 12-bit. Threrefore, any compression performed within the FS700 will be output, both to the onboard AVCHD and the HD-SDI port, will be 8-bit(perhaps packed in a 10-bit). However, C-D may be able to take the 12-bit RAW output and compress it to 10-bit DNxHD or "another popular codec", processed within the Odyssey. AFAIK, 10-bit 444 requires WAY too much disk storage space to be practical for most users.

And the REAL downside to this realization is that any s-log profiles output from the camera imply in-camera compression....and, therefore 8-bit processing. What good is 8-bit S-log? none, I say.
Click to expand...

Thanks cuervo, was hoping Sony threw us a bone. I agree with you 100%, but won't some type of s-log or improved gama curve help in the highlights? Thanks.

Anthony
 
I got an e-mail from AbelCine today saying that the cost of the upgrade is $400. They also listed the two Sony certified centers to send the camera to.
 
Yup. I got the same email. I am doing it ASAP. I am a happy man and love my Sony FS700, lol...
well SOMEBODY around here has tobe happy...
 
evilthought said:
The point is that all these whining would have been justified if the hardware upgrade was expensive, and/or there was no third-party option for recorder.
Click to expand...

Well.. It's still a great camera and I'm going to give the S-Log2 a try before I bash it. But yeah, just about the only person who gives Sony any credibility on the FS700 is Evilthought. Unlike many others, he seems thrilled to shell out extra cash. For me since I live in LA, I think / hope I can just drop of the camera, but if I had to mail it, I'd be bummed about the shipping cost and possible lost / breakage. Insuring an $8k camera with UPS costs an extra $80 each way on top of shipping which is quite pricey for a package that size and weight. More money, more money.
 
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ksteiger said:
Yup. I got the same email. I am doing it ASAP. I am a happy man and love my Sony FS700, lol...
well SOMEBODY around here has tobe happy...
Click to expand...

BTW ksteiger, in that email, did it say we can drop it off at Sony Service Center in Los Angeles? Where were the 2 Sony certified dealers located at?
 
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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F5F5FF"]4K now for $400
Abel Cine just informed me it's $400 at a SONY service center to now upgrade to 4K
==========

Hello and thank you for your business with AbelCine.

As an FS700 owner, we would like to inform you of a new upgrade for your camera.

Sony is offering a 12‐bit 2K-RAW & 4K-RAW output upgrade to owners of NEX-FS700U & NEX-FS700UK camcorders. Adding RAW output capability from the NEX-FS700 cameras requires a wide-ranging, internal hardware reprogramming.

This service must be performed at a Sony Professional Service Depot. The cost to perform the upgrade is $400.00 per camcorder, which is the labor cost of reprogramming.
If you would like to upgrade your camera, please contact your regional Sony Professional Service facility (locations and phone numbers below) to schedule the procedure and get informed of anticipated turnaround time. Please note, loaner cameras are not available.


Eastern Service Facility Teaneck
Sony Service Center

123 W. Tryon Avenue

Teaneck, New Jersey 07666

Voice: 201‐833‐5300

E-mail: TeaneckService@am.sony.com



Western Service Facility Los Angeles

Sony Service Center

2706 Media Center Dr., Ste. 130

Los Angeles, California 90065

Voice: 323‐352‐5000

E‐mail: LAService@am.sony.com

Shipping and insurance of the NEX-FS700 to Sony Service is the responsibility of the customer. Sony Service will return the upgraded camera at no charge using Fed Ex Standard delivery. Expedited shipment is available at an additional cost.

Users requiring operational support after this upgrade should contact the Sony Product Operational Support Center (POSC) at 800-833-6817 (M-F 8:00am- 8:00pm EST, excluding Holidays)


Also of note: AXS-R5 Version 1.2 or greater is required to support RAW recording with NEX-FS700 and HXR-IR5.
The cost for the upgrade will be waived if you have purchased the HXR-IFR5 Interface unit. Please include a copy of the purchase receipt with the NEX-FS700 camera and inform Sony service at time of appointment of your purchase.



For more information about the upgrade, please see below:

The upgrade adds “high production value” capability to NEX-FS700 camcorders


* 12-bit 2K-Raw & 4K-RAW recording to the optional HXR-IRR5/ AXS-R5 AXSM RAW recording system.
* 4K-RAW recording up to 60fps. 2K-RAW up to 240fps recordings
* Recording is as long as media capacity allows; there's no limit to clip size!
* 4K-RAW up to 60fps and 2K-RAW up to 240fps recordings write directly to the AXS-512/S24 memory card (when using the ASXM RAW system), without buffering- cutting the wait time for the data to spool from the buffer to the recording media.
* 120fps 4K-RAW recording-to-buffer (Approximately 3.75 seconds record time per burst, 17 seconds 4K playback at 24fps).
* Simultaneous AVCHD recording to internal SD card or external FMU memory unit while recording RAW to the AXS-R5 recorder (proxy is not available while recording HFR).
* Two new gamma curves: S-Log2 and 800% ITU70 are added to the camera.
* Record trigger command are now embedded in the HDMI and SDI uncompressed digital outputs (for outboard recorders).
* The SELP18200 Power zoom lens is supported for use with the zoom lever on the grip of the camcorder
* Additionally, upgraded NEX-FS700 camcorders may also interface with an appropriately configured Convergent Design Odyssey 7Q recorder/ monitor. Please contact Convergent Design or visit their website at Convergent Design | Professional Video Recorders | Gemini 444, nanoFlash, nano3D for important interface details. The Odyssey 7Q utilizes Cinema DNG RAW recording up to 2K 240fps. For 4K recording, the Odyssey 7Q creates DPX files. (corrections coming from Convergent).[/TD]
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