Selecting an editing suite

Me Myself & I said:
Good to know about naming the bins. At least I can separate the raw video from different
projects into different bins. But can I name the individual files?

Peter
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I started using Avid in 98/99 and w/in Avid I've always been able to rename the files and sort them in bins however I want. Now, w/in Windows Explorer or Apple Finder you couldn't rename the clips or move them out of the Avid Media Folder (up until recently that is) but the idea was that you did all of the organize in Avid and not at the desktop level.


-Andrew
 
Me Myself & I said:
Avid's media management is what I liked least about it. And one of the main reason I stuck with
Premiere. I just couldn't wrap my head around all media going to one bin and having an
incomprehensible file name. I like to separate my raw video into bins depending on the project
as well as label them something I can recognize - like christmas_tree_wide.
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Avid's approach to media management is much different than Premiere's or FCP's. It works like this:

When you capture into Avid via their hardware (MojoSDI, MojoDX, or NitrisDX) it converts your footage to MXF files that only Avid reads. You can capture to resolutions like DV25, DV50, 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 14:1s, DNxHD for HD media, etc... Then it puts those MXF files in a folder on your media drive in this file structure:

M:\Avid MediaFiles\MXF\1\(media goes here)

All the media goes into one folder, then Avid scans it, indexes it, and creates a database to track it. The benefit here is that you don't have to worry about losing files - if it's in that folder structure, in a numbered folder at the end, Avid sees it. So if I need to take a project to another system I copy "Avid MediaFiles\MXF\1\", transfer it to the root of the other system's drive, and it relinks automatically. Media, renders, imports, everything.

Another "benefit" (depending upon how you look at it) is that Avid converts all imported graphics/videos/audio to it's own media and puts it in the same folder structure. So if I have an External drive E:\ and I import Movie1.mov, Avid converts Movie1.mov to Avid media and puts the Avid media in the "Avid MediaFiles\MXF\1 folder. Now, if someone takes my external drive I can still edit because isn't looking for the media there. If I rerender Movie1.mov and replace it on my external, Avid still has the original. However, I can reimport Movie1.mov and it will import the newest version, updating throughout my timeline.

Concerning file management and naming clips - it's different with Avid than it is with Premiere. In Premiere you can look at your folders that Premiere is referencing and see what media it is. In Avid, it has cryptic names like this one (actual file name pulled from my drive):
Cloud Timelapse_Mot4B1E9FE0.mxf

Obviously it's a cloud timelapse, but beyond that I have no idea what it is. Some people hate that - I don't care because I'm not in charge of tracking that file...Avid does it for me. When I finish a project I can consolidate the entire thing or just the mastered sequence and Avid will create duplicate media to the drive I tell it to and I can tell it to delete the originals. So backup is fast, simple, and I've never had it fail (knocks on wood).

Bringing projects back to life means copying all the Avid media you consolidated to your media drive's Avid Mediafiles\MXF\1\(media goes here) and opening Avid. It finds the media, indexes and databases it, and relinks it to the project. So making a change to a 3 years old project is easy because I don't have to worry about the original file structure I had the files in, etc... There's only file structure that Avid sees. As long I put the media in that numbered folder after Avid MediaFiles\MXF\1\, it's online.

Now, with AMA (Avid Media Access) it's a little different. Avid recognizes P2 media as a virtual drive and can immediately populate your bins with your P2 media so you can edit instantly. No rewrap, no transcode - your master clips pop up into your bin and you're editing. Very smart stuff, but if you unmount that virtual drive your media goes offline. Remount it and it's back. It's closer to Premiere and FCP, but only works with P2, XDCam, and a few other formats.

Regarding file names in the bins - I think we're getting confused over terminology differences between the programs. In Avid, a bin holds your master clips, graphics, effects, and audio, but the master clips are just pointers to the media on your hard drive. So you can import a file called XyxZSGEk354.avi and it will be called XyxZSGEk354.avi in your bin, but you can rename it to whatever you want. You can call it "Christmas Tree Wide" if you want. The difference is that the Avid Media it's pointing to won't reflect that name. Again, Avid names it what it wants and tracks it, while you organize the master clips in your bins within Avid to reflect what you want the shot to be referred to as. I hope that makes sense.

You can make as many bins as you want in Avid, and name the masterclips whatever you want. So you do your organization and labeling within Avid, not on your hard drives. This way you can immediately start working and organizing within your editing program without worrying that changing the filename on your hard drive will make the file go offline in your project, or an older project that referenced that file a few months ago.

Again, it's just a different way to work. I don't want to manage my own media, organize it into a ton of folders, etc... just to reorganize it in my NLE, so Avid suits my workflow perfectly. Some people hate it, others love it. The Avid interface takes some getting used to because it's not friendly to a new user, but when you understand the why's of how it works it makes a lot more sense and allows you to work incredibly fast.

Sorry to go off topic like this, but hopefully this explains in more detail why Avid's media management gets the kudos it does from so many people.
 
This is not off topic. It's EXACTLY on topic. I started this post in hopes of having EXACTLY these kinds of discussions of why certain NLEs are favored. And to get away from the discussions of "My NLE ROCKS and yours SUX.".

As long as we can be respectful in this thread, we can flesh out some REAL information about how these high end programs work, and maybe some folks looking to jump up to a pro NLE will have a real resource to refer to as to why pros select the NLEs they do.

To address your comment specifically, I "got" the media management stuff immediately. It's an indexed database. That is why it scales so well. We run SQL databases here at the office and formerly Oracle. This is no different and its really a smart move by AVID. Lot's of data, potentially a lot of people all accessing that data at the same time. That spells relational database. Utter overkill for a home editor, but absolute necessity when you've got 20-30 people trying to cut a movie or a show.

When you've got a group doing cuts, another group doing sound, another group doing VFX, another group doing foley, etc., and everyone needs to be on the same page, this kind of approach makes perfect sense.
 
Sure,

Stack 3 layer of video on a timeline, cut between them all, put effects on one or all (chromakey, color correction, etc.) and hit play and watch it with no skipping at full framerate, full quality.



ihatedv said:
Can you explain what you mean by real-time?
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PerroneFord said:
Sure,

Stack 3 layer of video on a timeline, cut between them all, put effects on one or all (chromakey, color correction, etc.) and hit play and watch it with no skipping at full framerate, full quality.
Click to expand...
O.o

I can do that with my premiere
 
Smifis said:
O.o

I can do that with my premiere
Click to expand...


Yes, but what format? When I edit with Cineform or AVCHD, I have to render first. That can take time... and the time is wasted if I'm not sure of an effect and just want to test it out. Heck, even without effects, at 1080p it will skip, and I have a 2.4 quad core with 8gig of RAM and a dedicated media striped drive running on Vista x64.

Here's to hoping either Cineform's Prospect RTE or the Mercury RTE... whichever comes first... fixes that.
 
i can do it with avcvhd on a i7 processor.

you can select what part you want to render but movint the grey bar above the timeline so it won't render out the entire timeline
 
Hi Perrone,

I'm an avid guy, I have two avid adrenaline hd suites and media composer on my laptop, while it's not easy to learn (for me) the payoff is there for colaborating with others on large scale projects (not small indie films that are cut by one person).

I also have edius 5 for fast simple little projects, you know, put the P2 or SxS card in the laptop and start cutting footage in 10 seconds, I love edius for the speed and ease but have to use avid for large commercial projects.

Avid takes a lot longer to learn (for me) but the speed of it when you get to know it is awesome, you can fly on an avid.

There is a link in this link about a few network shows that went from avid to fcp and back to avid, they outline the reasons why. http://community.avid.com/forums/t/75729.aspx

Large scale big productions are avid all the way. I hang out a lot on the avid forums.

I'm not sure if I'd reccommend it to a little indie who doesn't want to get into the industry or has the need to share projects with others, fcp would be a better choice and easier to learn.

I'm on a PC but I guess the win-win editing suite could very well be a mac with both avid and fcp installed on it.
 
Thanks Chip, and I may tap you for some info. I just talked to my big boss and we're a green light for the purchase of a new suite, but I might have to wait a few months. So at least I am not wasting my time on this trial.

I am PC based. There is not an Apple in the building, or my entire organization for that matter. So FCP is out as an option. That leaves me with Avid, Premiere, or Edius. We have a lot of Adobe in the organization. Everything from Acrobat reader, to Photoshop, to indesign, to our web puiblishing. But I've just heard too many horror stories about Premiere for me to feel comfortable with that choice. And I don't do much in the way of effects for my day job. Strictly some openings, closings, lower thirds, and thank you very much.

Edius left me with a lot of questions. How does it integrate with XDCamEX which I shoot primarily. How is the titling, how is the compression stuff for going to web and archive? And when I take on an indie project, how is it for that? I don't know ANYONE cutting on Edius for really creative work.

With Avid, I know what I'm getting. I can look at broadcast around the country and see the work. I can look at the Oscars and see the work. I can look at the forums and see and talk to the staff. And maybe it's just me, but I seem to *get* the Avid logic. After watching the video tutorial twice, I just recut the first scene from our short. Took me 10 minutes. I an now finessing it with single and double roller trims.

I got a nice surprise in finding that Avid would export to my MJpeg2000 codec. That is a HUGE plus for me as it means my archival workflow won't have to change at all. And Squeeze reads that archival format and can compress from it.

I don't want to delude anyone. I am not knocking other products, and as mentioned, I am somewhat pre-disposed to Avid for numerous reasons. Though my video environment has me flying solo for stuff at work, we place a HEAVY emphasis on reliability here and being bulletproof. I have zero trouble in selling my bosses on paying extra for something if it is best of breed, or seen as highly reliable.

About the only thing that I think is crap about this system is that I can't monitor HD without the Mojo box. I have zero need for it otherwise, and it costs a boatload. I'd also really like to have a better workflow for posting RED and some 2K stuff. But I'll cross that bridge later. I can honestly handle a lot of that through Vegas still even if it is slower.
 
PerroneFord said:
Though my video environment has me flying solo for stuff at work, we place a HEAVY emphasis on reliability here and being bulletproof. I have zero trouble in selling my bosses on paying extra for something if it is best of breed, or seen as highly reliable.
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Then go Avid all the way on a certified computer. Most people with a certified avid system (no virus software or other crap on it) reboot once every 6 months to a year. I'm not sure if mojo (or maybe it's the adrenaline) b/o box will work on windows 7 if you upgrade from xp or vista in the future. I do know the guys on the avid forums are saying Media Composer software runs 30% faster on windows 7 due to better allocation of ram and processor threads.
 
I'm already on a Certified system (8-core, Quadro FX4800, etc.) and running Win7. This thing is flying. I'm currently cutting 1080/30p and it's moving like I've got SD on the timeline...

Check my thread out on the PC Media Composer area of the Avid forum. I posted it last week.
 
Smifis said:
i can do it with avcvhd on a i7 processor.
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And there's the rub. I've got a Q6600 Core 2. While not the latest and greatest, that's not exactly the slowest machine on earth. Not even close. And I would wager that the bulk of users are closer to my set up than yours.
 
Mike Harvey said:
And there's the rub. I've got a Q6600 Core 2. While not the latest and greatest, that's not exactly the slowest machine on earth. Not even close. And I would wager that the bulk of users are closer to my set up than yours.
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I'm also running a Q6600 / 4 GB ram...but it's time to upgrade. Got a i7 860 / 8 GB ram on the list....right after a NTG-3. They are nicely priced...motherboard, cpu, ram, for around $600-$700...not too bad.
 
PerroneFord said:
Edius left me with a lot of questions. How does it integrate with XDCamEX which I shoot primarily. How is the titling, how is the compression stuff for going to web and archive? And when I take on an indie project, how is it for that? I don't know ANYONE cutting on Edius for really creative work.
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XDCamEX... Just like all file based formats. Drag and drop from the media browser into Edius. It'll play it back in RT just like a Canopus HQ file. No rendering whatsoever!
Titling... Pretty good. You have the very capable Quicktitler with built in lower thirds or you can install the Inscriber TMPro for Edius which is outstanding albeit a bit quirky to use for animating.

Compression engine is from ProCoder which is one of the best in the industry.

Edius has come a LONG way in a short time. Anyone that followed Canopus from the days of Pure 3DFX card knows those guys can write software that is stable and FAST.
 
I used Canopus in the past (DVStorm2) and back then they were bundling Premiere Pro. It was solid, but I didn't like the proprietary files it created. Avid uses proprietary files inside it's database, but when you render, that stuff is easy to move around. I couldn't do a THING with the Canopus .AVI files.

I can see they've made a lot of progress since those days. Maybe I'll give it a whirl following my Avid trial. Do they give you 30 days too? Maybe I'll try Avid for 30, Edius for 30, and Premiere for 30. Just to give each a good look.

Maybe, I'll cut this short film in each to see how long it takes me, and how I fare in them all.
 
PerroneFord said:
I used Canopus in the past (DVStorm2) and back then they were bundling Premiere Pro. It was solid, but I didn't like the proprietary files it created. Avid uses proprietary files inside it's database, but when you render, that stuff is easy to move around. I couldn't do a THING with the Canopus .AVI files.

I can see they've made a lot of progress since those days. Maybe I'll give it a whirl following my Avid trial. Do they give you 30 days too? Maybe I'll try Avid for 30, Edius for 30, and Premiere for 30. Just to give each a good look.

Maybe, I'll cut this short film in each to see how long it takes me, and how I fare in them all.
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Oh man.. I remember those days with my DVStorm2! Remember that little extremely fast and stable editor included with the Storm? "StormEdit"? Well... that grew up and is now "Edius".

I had the head of advertising for Yamaha over to my home office for the edit of the PGA Tour back then. He sat behind me for like 8 hours while i wrapped up his video. Had greenscreen stuff, titles, gfx.... the whole 9... He was amazed that I could edit, dump in the footage in a couple clicks and chromakey out the background without rendering and he could watch it all in RT! Back then it was unheard of... Especially at that quality of a key.
 
Perrone,

Remember Edius 5 is 8 bit, that could be a factor if you'll be working with 10 bit avc-i. I think one of the Edius sales reps made a post here about 10 bit coming out next year or atleast he said they were working on a 10 bit version of Edius.

Edit: if Red will be in your workflow and your on a PC it looks like Avid or Premiere for now.

Edit#2: Your thread on the Avid forum is a good read btw, most the avid guys don't get in flame wars, it's pretty rare and I can assure you 99% of them have better things to do like edit Oscar worthy movies.
 
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