Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
Not my experience here in NYC at all and I've had time to indulge in a few movies. I have no idea what ghetto-ass theaters you've gotten yourself off to Lawrie. Tell me so i can avoid them. :beer:
Seems like it's getting harder and harder to get people to watch short films
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Not my experience here in NYC at all and I've had time to indulge in a few movies. I have no idea what ghetto-ass theaters you've gotten yourself off to Lawrie. Tell me so i can avoid them. :beer:
Jester2138
Well-known member
Since nobody actually advertises "new exploding head shots" or anything remotely resembling that, I assume you are just referring to the idea that mainstream Hollywood relies on spectacle over structure.
Advertising artistic influences strikes me as very arrogant. When I ask someone about a film they made, I want to know what it's about and what happens, not who influenced him in his storytelling. Proclaiming that Goddard was more influential than Hitchcock assumes I already knew or even just cared about the film.
Advertising artistic influences strikes me as very arrogant. When I ask someone about a film they made, I want to know what it's about and what happens, not who influenced him in his storytelling. Proclaiming that Goddard was more influential than Hitchcock assumes I already knew or even just cared about the film.
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Honestly ive noticed it - this was a cinema just of 51st, i should add that what may seem 'normal' may not be to audiences of another culture. It only took me two secs to find this on the net - http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=790793
British folk moaning about cinema experiences in the US! So these cultural differences exist, they influence us, and its interesting and useful to note I think.
Jester- exactly what are you being an apolagist for? Since im being a polemist with a reason
- Its not really an idea that Hollywood does - it DOES! hehehe its part of the appeal too! Yeah it can strike you as arrogant advertising artistic influences sure - or not? In that example im suggesting that if you were to speak to a filmmaker from Europe, by on average he would be talking about the project and what artists/ cultures/movements has inspired it. Not why its gonna rock!
Knowing what its about or what happens - okay sure but... do you react that way about a painting? Or a piece of music? There all art - film that is art may not be so pre-concerned with that. Even im not about mainstream films.
Its good to know about influences though and to appreciate them. Producing films in a blind miasma of non influence - or never discussing it also discredits the role those influences have on your work. The point i make, is that many european filmmakers will focus on it with a sense of neurosis in the same manner an American might on how his/her film will 'definately' sell.
British folk moaning about cinema experiences in the US! So these cultural differences exist, they influence us, and its interesting and useful to note I think.
Jester- exactly what are you being an apolagist for? Since im being a polemist with a reason
- Its not really an idea that Hollywood does - it DOES! hehehe its part of the appeal too! Yeah it can strike you as arrogant advertising artistic influences sure - or not? In that example im suggesting that if you were to speak to a filmmaker from Europe, by on average he would be talking about the project and what artists/ cultures/movements has inspired it. Not why its gonna rock!
Knowing what its about or what happens - okay sure but... do you react that way about a painting? Or a piece of music? There all art - film that is art may not be so pre-concerned with that. Even im not about mainstream films.
Its good to know about influences though and to appreciate them. Producing films in a blind miasma of non influence - or never discussing it also discredits the role those influences have on your work. The point i make, is that many european filmmakers will focus on it with a sense of neurosis in the same manner an American might on how his/her film will 'definately' sell.
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Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
You know Lawrie I'm an artist. It's what I trained for literally all of my life. I even have the 4 year degrees that say that I am a Fine Artist AND a Graphic Designer. Since I'm from Barbados this was in the British school systems. I got my A'Levels back in Fine Art after all.
Making films was a natural progression for me and maybe my approach is not the norm. Blank but I went in as a blank slate, determined to learn everything there is just so I can tell better stories. I'm well familiar with the idea of creating onto a blank canvas and I can tell you even then the thought of creating art never crossed my mind.
Like fame, art is a result, not a process.
Right now I just want to make movies to tell stories that move people. Here it doesn't matter if it's an exploding headshot... that would be like saying it was that tube of Cadmium Yellow that made my painting so kickass.
We are filmmakers, all of us. Let's just ****ing shoot something and leave everyone else to decide if what we've done is art or not.
Making films was a natural progression for me and maybe my approach is not the norm. Blank but I went in as a blank slate, determined to learn everything there is just so I can tell better stories. I'm well familiar with the idea of creating onto a blank canvas and I can tell you even then the thought of creating art never crossed my mind.
Like fame, art is a result, not a process.
Right now I just want to make movies to tell stories that move people. Here it doesn't matter if it's an exploding headshot... that would be like saying it was that tube of Cadmium Yellow that made my painting so kickass.
We are filmmakers, all of us. Let's just ****ing shoot something and leave everyone else to decide if what we've done is art or not.
Jester2138
Well-known member
That's people talking about our tradition of clapping when the credits start rolling if we like a film, with a few people chiming in about how audiences aren't actually loud and rude like the OP posits. So I really don't know how it supports your argument that USA audiences are loud and rude, since it actually does the opposite.
dougspice
Veteran
Lawrie, I too am not quite sure what you're getting at, but I'll throw this in the pot: I went to probably the most expensive film school there is. About 75% of my tuition was paid for by grants, scholarships, and a bit of federally subsidized (ie, nearly interest free) loans. If I'm ever caught referring to myself seriously as an "artist" I give anyone here license to slap me hard across the face.
I think the phenomenon you're describing about the difference between American and European indie filmmakers - as far as I believe it exists - is STILL largely about money! You're dead on about one thing: here in America the powers that be aren't too enamored with public funding of the arts. So there really is no such thing a film council or government grants for film production. Tax breaks are as close as it comes. From the filmmakers perspective, that means a UK indie must present himself as credible from an artistic perspective to a government body that is making the decisions of he gets his grant or not. On the other side of the lake, an American filmmaker has to convince a private investor that she's going to get her money back. You could discuss endlessly the significance of growing up in cultures driven by those different outlooks, but practically speaking I think it's all in the practical aspect of how the money starts flowing.
I think the phenomenon you're describing about the difference between American and European indie filmmakers - as far as I believe it exists - is STILL largely about money! You're dead on about one thing: here in America the powers that be aren't too enamored with public funding of the arts. So there really is no such thing a film council or government grants for film production. Tax breaks are as close as it comes. From the filmmakers perspective, that means a UK indie must present himself as credible from an artistic perspective to a government body that is making the decisions of he gets his grant or not. On the other side of the lake, an American filmmaker has to convince a private investor that she's going to get her money back. You could discuss endlessly the significance of growing up in cultures driven by those different outlooks, but practically speaking I think it's all in the practical aspect of how the money starts flowing.
dougspice
Veteran
Now. MeAgain, you're right. I haven't chosen a life of endless toil and constant worry. Some people have. To each their own, I guess. But I'll say this, and from your statements it should be obvious to you of all people:
** a camera does not make a movie **
Just because the literal means of acquiring the image have drastically plummeted in price, does not mean that any of the other aspects of production have. Unfortunately for me, the films I want to make – the ones that satisfy the artistic vision that I have in my head – can't be shot in my living room by a 4-person crew. Short of me discovering a wealthy relative I never knew about, I won't have the luxury of making these films with no concern for the commercial viability of the idea. I think the same is true for most everyone here.
And so what? Money can corrupt, sure, but making money in itself is not a sin.
** a camera does not make a movie **
Just because the literal means of acquiring the image have drastically plummeted in price, does not mean that any of the other aspects of production have. Unfortunately for me, the films I want to make – the ones that satisfy the artistic vision that I have in my head – can't be shot in my living room by a 4-person crew. Short of me discovering a wealthy relative I never knew about, I won't have the luxury of making these films with no concern for the commercial viability of the idea. I think the same is true for most everyone here.
And so what? Money can corrupt, sure, but making money in itself is not a sin.
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Yep pretty much! Kudos to you for the first sentence too (that your an artist) because yep i certainly think you are too Rodney! It's not that im encouraging us all to define whether or not films are art or that they should all strive to be worthy epics. I mean i love kung fu movies and id consider my favourites works of art!
Its more the point at which we decide art and its perceptions should effect the way we describe our films, our work, ourselves. The noticeable cultural difference especially among indies from the US and Europe is my point.
Its because Americans are scum Jester, and i wont rest until the Tricolor and Union Jack dangle from the White House! But seriously Jester... can there be smoke without fire? Or is it just a peculiar innuendo that gained traction in the UK? It even makes stand up material!! (I should add that link is more of a joke Jester, im not declaring war on US cinema audiences.)
Yep Doug, think your bang on the money. I actually work in Public Arts atm, but was doing private commercial work before, i think the UK TAX break for film is 22% atm if it meets a cultural/art criteria as defined by big brother of course
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
I've found that the majority of people who yell "sellout" and think that making money IS a sin... they're the ones least likely to make any money at all.
I make money from my craft and I tell you... I like it. I like it A LOT to be paid to do what I like?
Ever wonder why so many kids wanna grab a camera and jump on the bandwagon? Get paid for shooting movies? Sounds so easy...
If they really knew...
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
Hey Lawrie, aren't there more restrictions placed on what you CAN produce because of the public funding aspect? I would think a privately funded venture would have a hell of a lot more freedom...
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Oh yeah, although there is lots of money tied up in the 'industry' for us indies - or whatever freelance work we do - its a pittance of the game. Yep the extreme view is exactly that, when i studied at university there were those that would really think your not worth dog poo because you were touching genre (for say a graduation film).
Of course its equally horrific if you have a guy making a piece of crap and is hoping because his micro-budget crap is armed with a myspace campaign and magic bullet that it might resemble a multi-million crap.
'Hey has there ever been a gay zombie?' - why... no! there hasn't!
All starts with the story, hehe, never trust a producer to come up with one! hehe
Of course its equally horrific if you have a guy making a piece of crap and is hoping because his micro-budget crap is armed with a myspace campaign and magic bullet that it might resemble a multi-million crap.
'Hey has there ever been a gay zombie?' - why... no! there hasn't!
All starts with the story, hehe, never trust a producer to come up with one! hehe
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Hey Rodney, yep well i just took a look, it seems the culture points are gone atm for uk feature tax breaks - its all about expenditure (domestic) atm. So thats good - but for 'grant funding' then yep you are applying to a film council with an agenda, and if you want their cash your film has to compliment it. You still have to pitch to them as a producer what your vision is for the film to get funding too, rather than rattle a tin and oh poo now i gotta make a movie with all these rules. I wouldnt say anything /public/private whatever guarantees creative freedom. When its someone elses money...
Think things like regional promotion, cultural pride, basically positive social realism, issue related drama etc. OR whatever the politics of the day beckons.
In terms of private funding - sure in theory... and just look at all the amazing indies we have armed with that creative freedom. (About 5 million micro zombie films, then a break out drama at sundance with something unsual and original and wonderful hehe)
(I say that but a chap i met, Matthew Hope id a zombie civil rights movie hehe, called 'The Vanguard' got Lionsgate to distribute.)
Think things like regional promotion, cultural pride, basically positive social realism, issue related drama etc. OR whatever the politics of the day beckons.
In terms of private funding - sure in theory... and just look at all the amazing indies we have armed with that creative freedom. (About 5 million micro zombie films, then a break out drama at sundance with something unsual and original and wonderful hehe)
(I say that but a chap i met, Matthew Hope id a zombie civil rights movie hehe, called 'The Vanguard' got Lionsgate to distribute.)
Jester2138
Well-known member
Actually, yes, there most certainly can be. It's called a myth.
For instance, most non-New Orleanians thought (and still think) that the so-called "black" neighborhoods fared worse than the so-called "white" neighborhoods during Hurricane Katrina. In fact, that's completely false. But people still think it.
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
Unfortunately the talentless vastly outnumber the talented. And this brings us back the OP's question.
Youtube and everything that has been spawned from Youtube. With the proliferation of cheap cameras comes the fact that every idiot with a bad idea can go ahead and film it and post it somewhere. And then the public goes was watches it and everyone has a laugh after 2 Million views... before the content creator vanishes once more into obscurity.
Look around you. There are more bad films inundating the internet, even some with brilliant marketing that convince us that this may be the exception. Maybe here IS a talented filmmaker who has found the means to make a good film and we're going to be lucky to share it and-- oh. It's a video of a dog humping a guy's leg. Again.
With stuff like that out there its hard to know what to watch, or even furthermore care. And that's not the worst of it.
THen you have the guys who put together some kind of budget, a cast and a crew, and you get all excited for them and watch the movie and it's a bit of a let down. Maybe it was lit flat and lifeless. Maybe it was a 10 minute joke that should have ended after minute one. Maybe you see a way that they could actually fix it.... but of course no one is listening and they don't care that you watched. They just want their pat on the back and to be told "well done". They are not interested or invested in becoming better filmmakers.
So why bother?
Why care?
Especially when we have our own projects to focus on and work our asses off, because we do care. We are part of the industry and we're goign to do the best that we can to not disappoint our audience. My audience is NOT going to go away feeling like they just watched a dog **** a guy's leg. That's just wrong. By inviting them to view you make a compact with them that if they watch, you will entertain them.
That's the deal right there.
So invite us in, give us a reason to watch.
But if it's a dog humping a guy's leg, don't expect us to get the joke.
Or claim it is art.
Hold up your end of the deal and we will love you.
Anything else and we won't even tear you to shreds. But we will ignore the hell out of you...
Youtube and everything that has been spawned from Youtube. With the proliferation of cheap cameras comes the fact that every idiot with a bad idea can go ahead and film it and post it somewhere. And then the public goes was watches it and everyone has a laugh after 2 Million views... before the content creator vanishes once more into obscurity.
Look around you. There are more bad films inundating the internet, even some with brilliant marketing that convince us that this may be the exception. Maybe here IS a talented filmmaker who has found the means to make a good film and we're going to be lucky to share it and-- oh. It's a video of a dog humping a guy's leg. Again.
With stuff like that out there its hard to know what to watch, or even furthermore care. And that's not the worst of it.
THen you have the guys who put together some kind of budget, a cast and a crew, and you get all excited for them and watch the movie and it's a bit of a let down. Maybe it was lit flat and lifeless. Maybe it was a 10 minute joke that should have ended after minute one. Maybe you see a way that they could actually fix it.... but of course no one is listening and they don't care that you watched. They just want their pat on the back and to be told "well done". They are not interested or invested in becoming better filmmakers.
So why bother?
Why care?
Especially when we have our own projects to focus on and work our asses off, because we do care. We are part of the industry and we're goign to do the best that we can to not disappoint our audience. My audience is NOT going to go away feeling like they just watched a dog **** a guy's leg. That's just wrong. By inviting them to view you make a compact with them that if they watch, you will entertain them.
That's the deal right there.
So invite us in, give us a reason to watch.
But if it's a dog humping a guy's leg, don't expect us to get the joke.
Or claim it is art.
Hold up your end of the deal and we will love you.
Anything else and we won't even tear you to shreds. But we will ignore the hell out of you...
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Obviously this is of huge concern to you! I can see your future as a cinema usher! hehehe
I'll make sure your there next time i watch a movie off 51st street - then the 'myth' might die! Yep Rodney - agreed. Thing is I will from time to time search out short films to watch, more as examples to discuss! Me and Sarah started doing that - going over films and blethering (but this was from the filmmaker context!) We'd chat about stories, scripts, the shooting etc.
How many folk outwith the filmmaking community would go check out specifically - a short film? Unless it had a buzz for some bizarre purpose. The most popular vids on youtube are hardly the best short films - but normally the most ridiculous home video hehe.
Chris Light
Veteran
this thread is getting boring. but i have play-doh.....so i'm good. sorry....keep talking.
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
Too much free love? Someone should shake things up then...
Chris Light
Veteran
.....waiting....
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
At the risk of having Doug Spice and others slap me across the face...
What is the fault with aspiring to art? Why is art considered a dirty word? I wish there were more american filmmakers that aspired to that level of work... without apologizing for it out of fear of being labelled pretentious or elitist. Maybe it's an effect of knowing intimately how films are constructed that makes it difficult for me to enjoy a film that doesn't aspire beyond just "a good story, well told". I want layers of understanding, I want subtly invoked metaphor, I want social context, I want a fully-realized and artfully-executed cinematic experience. We have an overabundance of folks who can simply entertain us. But the ones that can honestly transcend the medium are so rare, so very scarce. That's what drives me to fervently seek out art films. I buy art films, I support art film-makers whose work speaks to me. I consider myself a filmmaker who aspires to art. I won't apologize for it. and it certainly doesn't mean I ignore the audience. In fact, I've amassed and incorporated the audience into the final stages of editing HEART OF NOW.
Going a step further, I think the accepted stereotype of "the artist" is way off the mark. I honestly don't know that I've read any article or interview with anyone thought of as an art-house filmmaker that suggests they don't think about what and how they are communicating with the audience. Vincent Gallo thinks about his audience. Lars Von Trier thinks about his audience – even if the thought is, I'm going to deliberately challenge them. Sometimes he succeeds (Breaking the Waves), sometimes he doesn't (AntiChrist). But he and others like him are pushing cinema forward.
It's a risky place to be on the cutting edge, experimenting with this evolving artform. But these are the folks that do it. Their successes are what the mainstream filmmakers mimic. Many times these artists will fail and the critics will label the work as self-indulgant, but man, when they succeed it is profoundly resonant. Art IS my entertainment.
What is the fault with aspiring to art? Why is art considered a dirty word? I wish there were more american filmmakers that aspired to that level of work... without apologizing for it out of fear of being labelled pretentious or elitist. Maybe it's an effect of knowing intimately how films are constructed that makes it difficult for me to enjoy a film that doesn't aspire beyond just "a good story, well told". I want layers of understanding, I want subtly invoked metaphor, I want social context, I want a fully-realized and artfully-executed cinematic experience. We have an overabundance of folks who can simply entertain us. But the ones that can honestly transcend the medium are so rare, so very scarce. That's what drives me to fervently seek out art films. I buy art films, I support art film-makers whose work speaks to me. I consider myself a filmmaker who aspires to art. I won't apologize for it. and it certainly doesn't mean I ignore the audience. In fact, I've amassed and incorporated the audience into the final stages of editing HEART OF NOW.
Going a step further, I think the accepted stereotype of "the artist" is way off the mark. I honestly don't know that I've read any article or interview with anyone thought of as an art-house filmmaker that suggests they don't think about what and how they are communicating with the audience. Vincent Gallo thinks about his audience. Lars Von Trier thinks about his audience – even if the thought is, I'm going to deliberately challenge them. Sometimes he succeeds (Breaking the Waves), sometimes he doesn't (AntiChrist). But he and others like him are pushing cinema forward.
It's a risky place to be on the cutting edge, experimenting with this evolving artform. But these are the folks that do it. Their successes are what the mainstream filmmakers mimic. Many times these artists will fail and the critics will label the work as self-indulgant, but man, when they succeed it is profoundly resonant. Art IS my entertainment.
Chris Light
Veteran
it's like a clutch NFL play call....if it works, you're a genius, if it doesn't, then damn you and your career?