SD mix-pre d, need help ....upgrading recorder.....

Z

Zenchicowboy

New member
So I don’t know if I need or just want a new recorder...the mix pre6 looks fun, or the zoom f4...currently I use the Mixpre-d and then go to a Tascam.....I want to either update the whole package...or just get a new recorder ....suggestions to keep the mix pre in the workflow....what would you record with.....replace the Tascam with what?..... budget say $1000.
 
The MixPre-6 is a little beast, and the Kashmir pre-amps are worth the price of admission. There are a few folks around here who swear by the Zoom F4 in this price range, but even at a slightly higher price I really feel that the MixPre-6 is a huge value with a better feature set (including analog limiters on the inputs).

It can also utilize TC if you want to run sync sound, but unless you need to use that feature and you have it jammed to an external source, keep TC turned off.
 
I wouldn't even consider the MixPre3, because three inputs is way to limiting (exception: if you're just a camera op, and are certain you'll never need more than three when doing one man shooting. And very highly value the ultra small size of it).

Thus now you're consider MixPre6 vs F4.
F4 has two more inputs (if you're using TC with both) it can recorder than the MixPre6 (6 vs 4). I feel having max of four with the MixPre6 is a tad limiting, while the 6 of the F4 is a comfortable number for most work.
Also, the F4 is cheaper (freeing up budget for something else, perhaps another secondhand wireless or a spare boom pole).
F4 has a few other small advantages too, such as full size XLR outputs.

Basically I see the lay of the land as such:

Ultra low end: Tascam DR60Dmk2
Mid low end: Zoom F4
High low end: MixPre10T
Professional: SX-R4+/Maxx/633/etc

I just think the gaps in prices between the DR60Dmk2/F4/MixPre10T doesn't have much of anything interesting. As you might as well settle for the one below, and save a bunch of money, or keep on saving to reach the next step up.
 
Welcome Zenchicowboy!

The MixPre-D is excellent, but, assuming that your unidentified Tascam is a reasonable model, you are not going to gain much by changing the recorder and, if a change is merited, a single recorder/mixer seems the answer within your budget (though presumably you can add the sale value of the MixPre-D to this?).

I don't disagree with the point made by David (IronFilm) that the Zoom's offer good value and functionality, but, that said, I do agree more with Alex.

Like the OP my previous set-up was a MixPre-D running line-out into a Tascam recorder (in this case a DR70D). I looked at and listened to the Zoom F8 when it came out and then, later, the Zoom F4, but skipped buying either. Then I listened to and bought a MixPre-3 very soon after it came out, and have had no regrets: it is simpler, smaller and has a better sound quality than my previous set up. As for why I skipped the two excellent Zoom recorders, bought the MixPre-3 and didn't buy the MixPre-6? Well, the MixPre-3/6 choice came down to the sound of the preamps, limiters, ADC and headphone amp. I am often recording (and filming) acoustic music, so doubt these aspects of the MixPre-3/6 sound - other than the limiters, perhaps - would be so relevant to pure dialogue use. The choice of the MixPre-3 rather than the MixPre-6 was due to the lack of need for the extra channels (for my particular use) and the diminutive size: for many, as has been suggested, the Mixpre-6 (or, even, MixPre-10T) would be a better choice.

Obviously, what would suit you entirely depends on your usage, current and future, and that isn't clear from your post. The different features of the Mixpre-3/6 and Zoom F/8 are reviewed elsewhere - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NadEMwaCNEY .

Cheers,

Roland
 
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The MixPre-6 probably has better preamps than the Zoom F4, though I found the preamps of the F4 satisfactory for my needs, I don't feel a need for better ones.

The main downside of the F4 I found is that its line out isn't a pro line level, it's -10dB. It isn't a problem for me, it may be a problem to some. Another downside is that the XLR inputs are only mic level, while the TRS inputs are only line level. Other than that, it looks to me close to being ideal portable mixer/recorder.

Other differences between the two were mentioned above:
MixPre-6 has better preamps and a pro line level out, though unbalanced 3.5mm.
F4 is cheaper and records 6 input tracks (4 XLRs or TRSs + stereo 3.5mm), vs. 4 input tracks of the MixPre-6. The F4 has balanced XLR line out + unbalanced 3.5mm, though the output level is -10dB. Also, the F4 has internal TC + TC In & Out connector, so it can serve as the TC source, or it can be jammed to an external one. When TC isn't needed, it can be turned off on the F4 as well.
 
TASCAM DR-100mkII. Thank you I am taking a line level to my Tascam....sound is pretty good, but I don’t have any comparisons...sounds like the pre6 might provide the way to upgrade, will using the mix pre-d at the front end of the pre 6 be a good way to go, or is this redundant....hope theses questions make sense
 
@ Roland Future......for some reason I see myself getting heavy into sound effects, looking for best set up for this......Thank You all tomtook a moment to answer....blessings
 
Zenchicowboy said:
TASCAM DR-100mkII. Thank you I am taking a line level to my Tascam....sound is pretty good, but I don’t have any comparisons...sounds like the pre6 might provide the way to upgrade, will using the mix pre-d at the front end of the pre 6 be a good way to go, or is this redundant....hope theses questions make sense
Click to expand...

You won't need the MixPre-D as a front end to the MixPre-3/6 (though it may come in useful for other applications). How much of a difference you will find between the MixPre-D + DR-100mkII and a MixPre-3/6 in terms of sound, will depend on mics, usage and your ears: functionality wise the differences between the equipment, and the Zoom F4/F8, is easy enough to assess from specs/manuals.

Cheers,

Roland
 
Zenchicowboy said:
@ Roland Future......for some reason I see myself getting heavy into sound effects, looking for best set up for this......Thank You all tomtook a moment to answer....blessings
Click to expand...

Well a MixPre-6 will be a very good option for this, and the next step up would be a 633 or similar. Of course, the mics you use are likely to be more critically important...

Cheers,

Roland
 
Zenchicowboy said:
So I don’t know if I need or just want a new recorder...the mix pre6 looks fun, or the zoom f4...currently I use the Mixpre-d and then go to a Tascam.....I want to either update the whole package...or just get a new recorder ....suggestions to keep the mix pre in the workflow....what would you record with.....replace the Tascam with what?..... budget say $1000.
Click to expand...

What is it about your current system that you're unsatisfied with? Which Tascam are you using?

The problem you'll have is that the MixPre-D's resale value has dropped like a rock since the new mixer/recorders have come out. Which doesn't change in any way how good the MixPre-D is -- it still has outstanding micpres, excellent limiters, and excellent meters. And more outputs than you can shake a stick at, including a mic level out for going directly into DSLR and lower end video cameras, and... AES outs.

If you've got a Tascan DR-100mkII for example, it can take the digital output from the MixPre-D and record it directly, so the recorder becomes a digital bit bucket and can not possibly add or subtract from the sound in any way. This... is hard to beat. All it takes is the right cable. Search for details if you're interested.

The only way to do better is to upgrade to the new MixPre-3/6/10. And even then, the only way it's going to sound better is if you up your game sufficiently to take advantage of what it can do. But it will give it all to you in a single box. And... shiny!

Yep, I want one too. But I'm going to keep using my MixPre-D anyway, because it's still better than I am, and I haven't found something that I need to do that I can't do with the MixPre-D.
 
I have used a very similar setup to the OP; a 302 in front of a DR100-2. Eventually I also purchased a used 744. The 302 + dr100 sounds just as good IMHO. There might be other reasons to change such as features and form factor. Fwiw, I kept the dr100 as a backup-carbag recorder since it is pretty decent by itself and a significant improvement over v1 which I also owned.

Per a previous post, older SD gear has taken a price hit, so suggest you might look at the used market for a 702 or 744, both of which are full of great features and excellent audio. IMHO, after using the metering on the older SD gear, I think you'll find the displays on any of the new gear a disappointment.
 
IronFilm said:
F4 has two more inputs (if you're using TC with both) it can recorder than the MixPre6 (6 vs 4). I feel having max of four with the MixPre6 is a tad limiting, while the 6 of the F4 is a comfortable number for most work.
Click to expand...

That’s kind of an arbitrary assessment. Number of inputs really needs to be decided based on the bulk of work, not just which one sounds like a more comfortable number. Personally, I most often don’t need anything more than 2 or 3 in the field, but that’s based on the work that I do. A 633 meets most of my higher-end needs.

It should be noted that the extra two inputs on the F4 come from a very awkward, proprietary connection that offers a limited selection of microphones as well as a pre-amp module that’s no better than the H4n/H6. I find that to be a very clumsy and underwhelming solution.

The 5/6 input on the MixPre-6 is through a 1/8” TRS input that can alternately serve as the time code input.

Time code is relatively unnecessary unless you’re on a professional production that demands wireless TC sync between audio and camera(s). If I’m out with a 633, I’m probably running wireless TC sync. If I’m out with my MixPre-6, I keep the TC turned off (though I do have a Tentacle Sync system if I need it).

Zenchicowboy said:
...for some reason I see myself getting heavy into sound effects, looking for best set up for this.
Click to expand...

This is precisely why I bought a MixPre-6. It is ideal for SFX recording, especially because the Kashmir pre-amps are so damn clean. They offer 73dB of gain, and I’ve driven them almost all the way up with no added noise. With 4 inputs, I can grab a wide stereo field and get two close-up positions. I toss the recorder and a couple of mics (mid-side array and a shotgun) in my bag whenever I travel, even on vacation, and record sounds whenever I hear something interesting. Even if I don’t have a project running, it’s a great way to keep on building my library.

Get the MX-LMount, though, so you can use Sony L-series batteries. AAs will get eaten for lunch, and the USB powering option always has me on edge that the cable’s going to get pulled out at the worst possible time (though USB power with a AA backup would prevent issues there).

The MixPre-D is still a fantastic machine, but the benefit of replacing both it and the Tascam with a MixPre-6 is that you get a single, compact, integrated solution with both mix and iso track recording. And the pre-amps are so good and so clean that you can get better mics as you learn and grow and you’ll hear all the detail that they bring.
 
...What a great response Bruce....ya I know your right, I am always wanting more....than happy with what I have....the mix pre-d cost me a 1000 dollars....I never have sent aes signal out...always line level to Tascam... i have a really nice BP4025 that I have not used well.....probably need to work hard at the mix pre-d....and learn what aes signal gives....

The audio I get is good, in fact very good, and for what I need , almost any “ upgrade” is not gonna result in greater sound.....probably should learn to be a master at Audition...
 
Either the Tascam DR 100 MK II or the Marantz PMD 661 or the Tascam 688 can run off the AES out of the Mix Pre D. I've done this for a few gigs and the sound is great with the easy to use interface of the Mix Pre D. The new mixpres are also great for an extremely small recorder. They are perfect when you are running around trying to grab ambient or interview audio on doc style shoots. I prefer the new mixpres for recorders since they are small, the recording is integrated, and it has all of the basic features I need for most small shoots. I still have the mixpre-d for running sound to camera or amping a microphone. And then I have a 688 for the big shoots. It really depends on what you need, but I lost interest in the lower end recorders when I got use to relying on the limiters on a Sound Devices Preamp.
 
Alex H. said:
…
It should be noted that the extra two inputs on the F4 come from a very awkward, proprietary connection that offers a limited selection of microphones as well as a pre-amp module that’s no better than the H4n/H6. I find that to be a very clumsy and underwhelming solution.

The 5/6 input on the MixPre-6 is through a 1/8” TRS input that can alternately serve as the time code input.
…
Click to expand...

Inputs 5/6 on the F4 can be fed also through a 1/8” (3.5mm) TRS stereo input, like in the MixPre-6, not only from Zoom's propriety module.
 
Alex H. said:
Get the MX-LMount, though, so you can use Sony L-series batteries. AAs will get eaten for lunch, and the USB powering option always has me on edge that the cable’s going to get pulled out at the worst possible time (though USB power with a AA backup would prevent issues there).
Click to expand...

This is important. People often don't take powering solutions into account (and other things, like a bag, or cables) when budgeting a recorder purchase. The MX-LMount is very nice, but the HawkWoods SD2 is also a great option if you are using very high capacity L-Mount batteries and have the MixPre-6 in a bag. It mounts the battery in a different way so it can actually fit in a bag. BUT..with the SD2 you can only mount one battery at a time, and with the MX-LMount you can mount two batteries. It just depends on what your setup is. Hawk Woods also has a 4 pin Hirose option for the MixPRe-3 and MixPre-6 called the SD1.

You can see my video series I did on the mixpres here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdVvztPMEx4&list=PLFpXePzBF0FkMwHNaYSnBWzAOsoQ-gkOH
 
Alex H. said:
the USB powering option always has me on edge that the cable’s going to get pulled out at the worst possible time.
Click to expand...

USB-C cables won't just fall out, you have to really yank on them to pull them out. If I had any worry about these, you could always add small piece of velcro to ensure that the cable would never be accidentally yanked out of the socket.
 
Interesting responses. I do a lot of SFX recordings. If your not doing production then your set up can be very flexible. FX recordists were using things like Sony DAT Walkmen with preamps and strange powering rigs back when and nobody gave you weird looks.

Since you have the MixPre you can always use that for two tracks of SD pres with SD limiters on any recorder.

The plus of the MixPre3/6 is less gear to haul around and SD gear is built like a tank. For FX work today you will want more tracks, sometimes. How often "sometimes" is really depends on what you are recording. I absolutely would not buy a recorder for my main SFX machine with less than four tracks. If you are just doing hard FX or ambiences then two is probably fine but four is about the minimum to say wire up a car. We always did that in multiple passes or multiple machines and that is a PITA.

While the majority of SFX out there were recorded at 48K 16- 24 bit, if your doing this professionally you are going to want to be able to do 96/24. Not that it's all that more useful for post but it is what folks are asking for and buying. I'm pretty sure everything you have talked about will do four tracks at 96/24 so... I would give an extra point if they can do four at 192 because I'm sure that is going to be next.

And TC... I have had two times where it would have been a plus, sort of,. Both were production. In the first case there were multiple cameras and they didn't have a way to lock them anyway so it would have been a bit of a wonk. The second time it wasn't speced because the original cameraman/ camera couldn't use it. When he got fired and the new guy came on he could and it would have been a plus for them in post but we were in the middle of know where so wasn't an option. And there was one time also production where the producer had rented all the gear and I was coming in just to do the recording. They had gotten a TC DAT because someone told them it was the thing. But they were shooting on film with no way to link the two but a dumb slate so, really pointless waste of time.

Short version, if you might be doing some production then TC is a plus, but probably not a big one.

Personally for FX I would lean to the F4.

The reason is cost and features. The mixPre3 doesn't have enough tracks. 3 is not enough of a boost over two tracks. Also it doesn't do 192 so that may be a SFX issue in a few years. The MixPre6 has the tracks and the SR but it's about twice the cost of the F4. For than money you could go to the F8 and more tracks than you are likely to ever need.

I would keep the MixPre in the bag and use it possibly as a front end for stereo work and as a way to get two more mics in. That is my paranoid side. It's possible that after working with the F4 I would skip the MixPre except for thracks 5/6.

IF you are doing a lot of production in professional situations I would probably lean to the MixPre 6. You have a lot of flexibility with FX work but I would still be a bit nervous with the Zoom as my main recorder. It seems to be doing well but perception counts in those situations and SD is a solid professional piece of gear that producers will be relaxed about and Zoom is still the "untested upstart" (perception not necessarily reality).

If your looking at any "reality" gigs then track count is a lot more important and maybe the F series with it's ability to slave would trump other issues?
 
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