Schoeps MK41 Alternatives?

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nick_m_777

Member
Hi all,

MY SETUP:
Will be primarily filming indoor dialog (esp interviews) as well as outdoor scenes for documentary. I have an SD 442 and will be running my audio from that into my HVX200 for now. I'm hoping to go dual system into an SD 702 in the future. Will be using a boom mic as my primary mic with a lav as backup when necessary (leaning towards Tram TR50 but might go with Sanken COS 11). I currently have a Sennheiser ME66 but am planning on upgrading. So my question is regarding a boom mic(s).

MY QUESTION:
I am reluctantly coming to the realization that buying one good boom mic is probably not going to cut it for a variety of filming conditions. I am thinking I will need a hyper AND a shotgun mic to deal with indoor dialog and outdoor settings. For the shotgun I am thinking of either the Sennheisher MKH416 or the Sanken CS3e. But the hyper is what I am having trouble with...

Of course, the Schoeps MK41 seems to be the industry standard for hypers, but the price is a little high for me (considering I also need a shotgun mic). And the Octava 012 seems a bit too low end to be an upgrade from what I have. I have searched for a high quality alternative that will give me sound comparable to the Schoeps for indoor dialog in the $1,000-1,500 range. But I don't seem to be coming up with anything. Any suggestions?
 
I have been very happy with the Audix SCX1 hyper. About $400 dollars if you shop it. I got the tip from a thread by Ty Ford.. (Audio guru) It is noticeably better than my AKG Blueline (CK93) We did an entire feature with the Audix. I can send you a sample if you like. PM me youe e-mail. (also consider the NTG3 Shotgun) I have a MKH-415 and thinking of switching.
 
You may try to look for a used MK41 in that price range...

I'm sure there are others that can weigh in, but my understanding has gotten to be that for accuracy, going with something low end like a AKG CK93/SE300b, Oktava, ect... are excellent for the money, but you don't gain much inbetween those and the MK41.

I know Jeff Wexler has mentioned on his form using an Oktava as a "stunt mic" on sets because it's Schoeps-esqe in the way it sounds and can cut in pretty well with the real deal.

And obviously consider the shock mounting (K-Tek KSSM) and windshield (Rycote BBG) especially if you go with the Oktava.

An contradicting myself a bit, Oleg (a pro who used to post here) mentioned that the MBHO 603 & k500 as an excellent, cheaper MK41 (although he still uses MK41s as needed). I've never known anyone to use it other than him, but you might consider looking into it.

Matt here on the forums has talked about he NTG-3 and how it's very close, yet cheaper than the MKH 416. Although he also says that the CS-3e is vastly superior to both of them.
 
Gohanto said:
An contradicting myself a bit, Oleg (a pro who used to post here) mentioned that the MBHO 603 & k500 as an excellent, cheaper MK41 (although he still uses MK41s as needed). I've never known anyone to use it other than him, but you might consider looking into it.
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Well I use it and I wouldn´t miss it. MBHO is historically conected with Schoeps and the built of th mic shows striking similarity...
 
Don't forget that you can get "modded" Oktavas from Michael Joly and others that replaces a few components with lower-noise ones. Still not a Schoeps, but a modded MK-012 always is in my kit just in case conditions are sketchy or something more expensive fails. Solid for spoken word and dialog, poor choice for effects gathering, and realize that (like many other mics) the high end frequency response attenuates as the capsule patterns narrow. Also be aware they're very susceptible to handling noise.
 
Really? That is a surprise to me as I thought it was a hyper. And hypers are supposed to handle interiors better. How does that figure?
 
nick_m_777 said:
Really? That is a surprise to me as I thought it was a hyper. And hypers are supposed to handle interiors better. How does that figure?
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hypers and super's are almost the same..
the super picking up a little bit less in the back.

People commonly call super's, hyper's because they are so similar.
Point being is the 8050 is the pattern you would want if you go that route.
 
nick_m_777 said:
Really? That is a surprise to me as I thought it was a hyper. And hypers are supposed to handle interiors better. How does that figure?
Click to expand...

The interior/outdoors issue isn't one of the tightness of the pattern per se but rather the physical principles on which the mic achieves its pattern. Shotguns use an interference tube to achieve their directivity, hence their appearance and the name. Their patterns also have lobes on the rear-side positions. "Hypers" like the MK41 have very similar shaped front patterns but lack the rear side lobes, instead there is a single lobe facing due aft. They are not based on an interference tube so don't have the same poor behaviour as shotguns in environments with a high proportion of reflected to direct sound such as found in typical interiors.
 
So let me make sure I have all this straight (thought I did but I guess it turns out I didn't). Hypercardioid and Supercardioid are almost the same thing as far as patterns, but the way they are constructed is different. Because of this the hyper doesn't color the off axis noises it picks up as much as a supercardioid (especially in the bass frequencies). And that is the primary reason hypers are better for interiors. Is that correct?
Is "shotgun" and "supercardioid" synonymous?
 
I just purchased a AT4053b and it is definate step above my Oktavas. It is a bit heavy = solid build. Good mic for $499.

Grant
 
Wadro said:
I have been very happy with the Audix SCX1 hyper. About $400 dollars if you shop it. I got the tip from a thread by Ty Ford.. (Audio guru) It is noticeably better than my AKG Blueline (CK93) We did an entire feature with the Audix. I can send you a sample if you like. PM me youe e-mail. (also consider the NTG3 Shotgun) I have a MKH-415 and thinking of switching.
Click to expand...
Noticeably better? That is interesting. I remember Ty mentioning the Audix right after I purchased my AKG. This is the first comparison I have come across. Thanks for mentioning it.

Edit--so as to not totally hijack this thread; another way of saying what Steve said and what Rippie refers to, shotguns utilize interference tubes to cancel out sound from the sides and using this type of mic in a reflective environment (indoors) usually does not work well. Regular, (non-shotgun type) Omni's, cardioids, hypercardioids and supercardioids do not utilize interference tubes and therefor have no issues with inside environments. One cause for confusion in the terminology can be that shotgun microphone polar patterns are sometimes described as being "supercardioid" in shape, because they are. But again, shotguns have interference tubes, the omni's, cardioids, hypers, etc, do not.
 
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Many people seem to use the two terms, super-cardioid and hyper-cardioid, as the same thing.

There are, however, important differences between the different types of cottage-loaf microphone patterns.

The pressure-gradient microphone with the best directivity of 4 is dubbed the hyper-cardioid. Its disadvantage, however, is the lack of rejection for sound coming directly from the rear (180º). The rejection here is only 6dB. Trying to optimise the directional characteristics, Sennheiser created a super-cardioid microphone with equal rejection at 90º and 180º. This improves the rear rejection figure without sacrificing the side rejection figure too much, and still retains a high directional coefficient of 3.86.

The theoretical figures for the various cottage-loaf microphones are:-

Hyper-Cardioid
The hyper-cardioid microphone has it’s angle of maximum rejection at 109.5º.
It is optimised for the maximum directivity coefficient of 4.0.
Rejection at 90º is -12dB
Rejection at 180º is -6dB

Super-Cardioid
The super-cardioid microphone has it’s angle of maximum rejection at 125.3º.
It is optimised for the maximum front to rear index and has a directivity coefficient of 3.73.
Rejection at 90º is -8.7dB
Rejection at 180º is -11.6dB

Sennheiser Super-Cardioid
The Sennheiser super-cardioid microphone has it’s angle of maximum rejection at 120º.
It is optimised for equal attenuation at 90º and 180º, it has a directivity coefficient of 3.86.
Rejection at 90º is -9.5dB
Rejection at 180º is also -9.5dB
The attenuation at 90º is equal to the attenuation at 180º (the 180º signal being out-of-phase of course), this means that the attention is concentrated on the sound coming to the front of the microphone.

The disadvantage of the hyper-cardioid is that sounds from the rear can be too high due to the lack of rear attenuation, and the disadvantage of the standard super-cardioid is that its side rejection is not enough.

Please note that these are the theoretical figures which may differ slightly in practice.

My favourite super-cardioid is the MKH 8050 and the older MKH 50, both these ar RF condensers which work well in the damp and wet. The Neumann KM 185 is also nice at a slightly lower price.
 
No alternatives to the MK41, sorry. The sound signature is just very different. There are plenty of supercardioids, but they have a different sound. The modded Oktava is not a bad choice, but it sounds different. I personally don't care for the Audix, the Km 185, or the Sanken, of the new Sennheisers. I don't think the MBHO's sound at all like the Schoeps, they LOOK like them, but they don't sound like them. I like the hyper patterm on the MKH 80/800, but that is even more money, and I still prefer the MK41. It's a special mic. So is the MK2H.
 
There is nothing like the MK41. Some have a slight similar characteristic of it, and that's only in its directivity. Off-axis characteristics of the MK41, no other like it. The Saknen CS3e comes close to your preference for INT/EXT usage.

DrDave, the MK2H is indeed a special mic. Ensemble or classical you are?
 
How is the handling noise on the Audix SCX1/HC better compared to the Oktavas? In the purchase for some new mics.

Thanks
Nicole
 
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