Scene Settings

seanh420

seanh420

Active member
I have been messing with these scene settings for over a month now trying to get it right. My goal is to have minimal noise and the best picture possible. I made a list of the settings I currently have. Anyone else want to share with me their scene settings? It would be much appreciated.

SCENE FILE:

DETAIL LEVEL = 0

V DETAIL LEVEL = 0

DETAIL CORING = +7

CHROMA LEVEL = -7

CHROMA PHASE = -7

COLOR TEMP = 0

MASTER PED = -5

A. IRIS LEVEL = -3

GAMMA = [ ]LOW, [X]NORM, [ ]HIGH, [ ]B.PRESS, [ ]CINE-LIKE, [ ]CINE-LIKE_D, [ ]CINE-LIKE_V

KNEE = [X]AUTO, [ ]LOW, [ ]MID, [ ]HIGH

MATRIX = [ ]NORM, [ ]ENRICHED, [X]FLOU, [ ]CINE-LIKE

SKIN TONE DTL = [X]OFF, [ ]ON

V DETAIL FREQ = [X]THIN, [ ]MID, [ ]THICK

PROGRESSIVE = [ ]OFF, [ ]30P, [ ]24P, [X]24P(ADV)
 
Re: Scene Settings

Wow that looks like a very interesting setup you have there...

Do you have some grabs you could post demonstrating this look (inside + outside)?
 
Re: Scene Settings

...or you can try this:

detail level: 0
V detali level: 0
detail coring: 0
chroma level: -4
chroma phase: -2
color temp: 0
master ped: 0
A iris: -3
Gamma: BLACK PRESS (the very cleanest gamma setting, closely followed by "low")

if you switch from BPress to cinelike (or cinelikeD), you will see that cinelike has a lot of real time processing that makes A LOT of noise.
I think it is always better to choose a clean gamma setting and achieve the filmlook gamma curve in post. MUCH MUCH CLEANER.
 
Re: Scene Settings

The only problem I can see with that though is that you don't get as much latitude. By processing in camera you can get the most off the CCDs as possible. Once you have a compressed 8bit image you can't regain lost latitude. :(
 
Re: Scene Settings

Shaw,

yes and no, i mean, there is NO "Real" lattitude improvement with the cinelike gamma setting. The only thing the cinelike does is to add a gain at the botoom of the gamma curve. And this is not good lattitude because the apparent extra info is very noisy.  If you stretch a cleaner info in post, you'll have about the same results, but much cleaner. Try it !  the difference is amazing. I mean...it is not subtle at all.

The DVX can record very clean (unprocessed signal) and very noisy images (processed signal).
Let's hope that Panasonic will improve the cinelike processor in futur versions of the camera.

Look at the XL2 grabs, they're almost noise free. You actually can be so close to this noise free imagery with the DVX100A just by avoiding the 3 cinelike gamma settings.
 
Re: Scene Settings

I'm still not sure it would be best to do this in post though...

You should have much cleaner image data to manipulate straight off the CCDs rather than after compression. At least, in theory - I can't argue with actual experience :).
 
Re: Scene Settings

This is interesting. Can anyone verify that? (not that I wouldn't believe what Antoine is saying...) What NLE? I'd like a "cookbook".

(that's where Barry's book should help, I hope)
 
Re: Scene Settings

Jerry,

This is just my humble opinion.
Maybe someone else will prefer the look of cinelike gamma setting even if it has more noise.

The easiest way is to program your scenefiles with these different gamma settings, all other things beeing equal, use a tripod and shoot the very same image with the very same lighting with those different gamma settings. The difference is always more apparent on a TV monitor but can be clearly seen on a computer monitor also.

The best is to try it by yourself and choose the setting YOU prefer.
 
Re: Scene Settings

Actually in my testing I found that Cine-Like does deliver about a half a stop of extra latitude, as compared to all the other gamma settings.

Cine-Like compresses the whole dynamic range downwards, leaving a good half-stop of headroom at the top of the scale. If you're careful to avoid overexposure, Cine-Like gives the widest dynamic range. And yes, I blather on about gamma curves at length in the book and on the DVD, gamma's probably the longest sequence.

I hope the examples on the DVD make sense. The gamma curves are easiest to understand if you pipe the video though a waveform monitor.
 
Re: Scene Settings

From playing with those settings on the 100 (not the a) I have found cine-like does what Barry says. Plus moving the different settings you can find some unique options.

Still looking forward to the book and DVD to view a master at work.
 
Re: Scene Settings

Barry could possibly replace the bible, I know in this house it will.


I can not wait for the book Barry thanks for taking the time to publish your knowledge and sharing it with us.
 
Re: Scene Settings

[quote author=Antoine_Fabi link=board=Events;num=1098819781;start=0#7 date=10/26/04 at 18:39:33]Maybe someone else will prefer the look of cinelike gamma setting even if it has more noise.
[/quote]

Quite possibly. The original post was about minimizing noise, though... For me it's a trade-off - I want maximum dynamic range with minimum noise. Since there are several settings that affect both, it can take hundreds of combinations to find what appeals to you.

The easiest way is to program your scenefiles with these different gamma settings, all other things beeing equal, use a tripod and shoot the very same image with the very same lighting with those different gamma settings. The difference is always more apparent on a TV monitor but can be clearly seen on a computer monitor also.

The best is to try it by yourself and choose the setting YOU prefer.
Click to expand...

Sure thing. The best way to find out if Earth is round is to get yourself shot up into the space, and decide if YOU like it. :D

I wish I had the time and resources to do all the testing in the world, but I don't. That's where trusted professionals come into picture. I don't have a reason to doubt Barry's conclusions, after a long and rigorous testing and adjusting all settings on his part. With pictures in the book (I hope they are in color), I should be able to pick settings I like most.

I've spent countless hours trying to come up with settings I liked. I finally settled on something, just to load someone else's settings into my scene file a couple of weeks later, and to find I liked those even better than mine. So it's a 'continuous improvement' issue, I guess. You can always revert to your original settings if what someone else offers doesn't appeal to you...

Jerry
 
Re: Scene Settings

There are no pictures in the book -- that's what the DVD section on menu settings is for. All the scene file settings are displayed in DVD format, with little animations or zoom-ins to accentuate certain points or to point out specific areas to look to see the effects of the settings.
 
Re: Scene Settings

Antoine,
What do you mean by black press being the "cleanest"? I fiind that
that I like the look of black press but it tends to well compress the blacks abit. It gives very nice contrast I think in normal light but for the low light stuff I've tried high gamma which I know you like and it gives me alot more detail without excessive noise in interlaced mode.
Trying different scene files is interesting but frustrating and time consuming at times. I tried to start a thread on favourite scene file settings but it never really took off.
 
Re: Scene Settings

Translumination,

You're right, there is not a magik setup that works 100% in all situations.

I looked at some of Disjecta's frame grabs...

He took some killer images with original cinelike gamma setting (not the D) and he used the normal chroma matrix and boosted 4 clicks to compensate for the reduction of color compared to cinelike color matrix.

I did some tests tonight and i must admit the cinelike WITH the normal chroma matrix works really good.

Thanks Disjecta !

...so it seems that most of the noise comes from the cinelike gamma setting WHEN combined with the cinelike color matrix.

Maybe this is "WHY" DVFILM recommends this setting (normal color matrix) for tranfering to film. Even if i had to "push" the color level 4 clicks more, it looked a lot cleaner than the cinelike color matrix.
 
Re: Scene Settings

Which is quite interesting really. I wonder what it is about the cine-matrix that adds so much noise. What exactly IS the camera doing to process the colors?
 
Re: Scene Settings

The "cinelike" color matrix shifts the hue of "some" specific colors without shifting others.
I think it is much more difficult to do in real time and that "could" explain "why" it adds so much noise.
Again, i am pretty sure (but only my opinion) DVFILM recommends "normal" color matrix to avoid tranfering noise to film.

...no matter the reason...it clearly works.
 
Re: Scene Settings

Ai thats what I supposed. And it does indeed work!

I'm just curious about the specifics as I would love to write a plugin for After Effects or similar program that would duplicate the look exactly. I seem to remember Adam Wilt having something about the specifics on his site.. will have to go look. Would anyone be interested in a "DVX look" plugin and/or specific settings?
 
Re: Scene Settings

Cine-Like boosts the saturation of all colors, basically across the board.

Normal is un-enhanded, Enriched jacks up the saturation of the red/yellow/magenta side but not the rest, Fluo cranks up the saturation of all the colors but green (and less boost to blue) and Cine cranks 'em all up quite strongly.
 
Re: Scene Settings

nope...that's not what i'm seeing here.

If you look on the vectorscope, you'll see that the cinelike color matrix really shift the colors a little to the yellow side AND mute the reds a little.
PLUS it makes the reds especially dark and dirty.
Plus, the yellow are lighter.
PLUS, the definition between two colors (say yellow and red for example) is not as crisp and silky as with "normal" color matrix.
Cinelike is not a linear function, i am very sure.

My DVX100 did that, and my DVX100A do that also.
 
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