Scarlet Announcement

[ChipG]

I can see lots of reasons why people would still buy an hpx170 or ex1 over the fixed lens scarlet. I think scarlets form factor will come into play for fast hand held run n' gun work. Yes, I know you can buy all sorts of handles and mounts for it but then it's not a little hand held run n' gun cam anymore (from what I can tell at this stage).

I do like the size of it next to the nikon d3 but how will it feel to hold a little square box all day?

EDIT: I'd love to see scarlet's guts inside of an hpx170 body. That's what I'm talkin' bout!

 

[adkimery]

For me the issue is being able to shoot 3k and 120p (with everything else mentioned) for less than the price of an EX1 and quite a bit less than an EX3 or HPX300. Not to mention the PMW 350 with is a 2/3 chip.

To be completely fair $4750 for the fixed Scarlet gets you a very bare bones setup in almost the same way $1750 only gets you a Red One body. Typical camcorders come out of the box ready to go for the most part. The Scarlet does not. EVF? Comes separate. Handles? Come separate. I/O jacks (HD-SDI, TC, etc.,)? Come separate. It won't take much to 'build up' a Scarlet that is closer to $10k than $5k. On paper is that still a competitive price? IMO yes, but it's a far cry from $4750 which gets you started but not really a production ready piece of gear.



-A

 

[stephenvv]

What are you basing that on exactly?
From what I've seen so far the specs on the 2/3" fixed scarlet lens seem pretty sweet.

EX1 has F 1.9 14X lens with AF/MF with MF switch and OIS, built in lens correction in camera etc.

Built in mics, EVF and LCD etc. - more IO out of box etc. Lots of cams have 4 channel audio etc.

Again, the only compelling Scarlet advantages are 120fps and RAW. The "system" modularity is unknown how well it will work and cost-effective it will be.

And a second generation GH1 or 7D (let's say with an aliasing/rez fix and better codec) at 1/3rd or less the cost make Scarlet 2/3" fixed or interchangeable a camera with a small audience.

The primes are sweet but $5k worth of 2/3" primes seems like a sketchy investment in a S35 sensor world. Can't use them on much else but a Scarlet.

Barring some major change in price or features or total lack of video DSLR advances in the next 9 months, I don't huge waiting lines for Scarlets.

And unless the S35 Scarlet comes soon (and it's well over $10k for very basic kit), man, would I really want it over a Mark V or 7ds or whatever is out then? That money buys a lot of other stuff. I can always rent a cam for super slo-mo.

 

[stephenvv]

I dunno, I know there are still a lot of questions left about it, but I can't see why anyone would choose an hvx or ex1 over one now.

Uh, second generation of those are shipping now. And even when Scarlet's are shipping, if they ship with problems etc. anything like Red One, plenty of people will skip them. Broadcast/ENG/EFP/Event guys (a huge market) also will likely skip no matter what.

Plus, A 2/3" with primes will cost as much as 2 EX1 or HVX-class cam. Plus, if Red slips another 3 to 6 months, all sorts of other cams will be shipping in the mix.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

EX1 has F 1.9 14X lens with AF/MF with MF switch and OIS, built in lens correction in camera etc.

The fixed scarlet lens is T2.6
8X (versus the 14X, so you may ahve a point there)

AF & MF, not sure on OIS - but it won't surprise me to see it have some form of OIS, it definitely hasn't been ruled out as far as I know.

Built in mics, EVF and LCD etc. - more IO out of box etc. Lots of cams have 4 channel audio etc.

The whole point of the system is modularity - so no, those things may not all be packaged into the body, but they are all possibilities.
Comparing a modular system to an enclosed one is kind of apples and oranges in many ways.

Is modularity for everyone? Of course not - but it's definitely an interesting option.
A lot can definitely change in the coming year, but I'll be pretty surprised if the Scarlet doesn't sell like hot cakes.
Then again, i could be way off - who knows.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

that f1.9 isn't fixed throughout the zoom range is it?

There are lots of advantages (to me) that make it well worth the price. I'm not really into the whole debating thing too much over it though. Lots and lots of choices for folks out there and that will be out there down the line, that can work in more than one arena, and are effectively suited for multiple tasks.

Without going into debate, I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you that there aren't going to be a lot of folks interested in the 2/3" models. I've seen quite a few who are very interested and they are coming from all different areas. Everyone has their own needs/wants.

I think the differences will become more apparent to some folks as time goes on and these things finally make it into hands.

I can think of ex and hvx users who are seriously looking at a scarlet. I can think of gh1 and 7d users who are as well. I can also think of 7d users who came from a hv20 and are happy and content, and hpx users who are more than happy with what that camera can do for their needs and don't need/want a scarlet or some other camera.. And, folks who use several of the above mentioned for different tasks.

anyways...

To each his own.

Later,
jason

 

[killacam]

Well - I can see one huge reason why someone would choose and HVX or EX1 over a Scarlet now.


There's still quite a bit of time before anything is released.
If someone is working for a living, a camera like an HVX or EX1 bought today will have paid for itself WAY before Scarlet is released.

well yeah, sorry I guess I meant when it comes out ha.

 

[adkimery]

T
The whole point of the system is modularity - so no, those things may not all be packaged into the body, but they are all possibilities.
Comparing a modular system to an enclosed one is kind of apples and oranges in many ways.

Of course those things will be possible w/purchasing additional modules, but then you don't have a $4750 camera anymore and that strikes at the heart of people saying, "How can Sony and Panasonic hope to stay in business when Red delivers so much more camera for so much less money?" Basically Sony and Panasonic sell you a 'complete' camera out of the box and Red sells you a starting point. People thinking that $4750 will get them a camera w/all the features and functions they've come to expect from nice prosumer cameras will be in for a rude awakening.

I don't think either way is inherently better than the other as I'm a firm believer in the horses for courses mentality, but, as you said, comparing an out-of-the-box Scarlet to an out-of-the-box EX3 is a bit like apples to oranges.


-Andrew

 

[Jason Ramsey]

To be completely fair $4750 for the fixed Scarlet gets you a very bare bones setup in almost the same way $1750 only gets you a Red One body. Typical camcorders come out of the box ready to go for the most part. The Scarlet does not. EVF? Comes separate. Handles? Come separate. I/O jacks (HD-SDI, TC, etc.,)? Come separate. It won't take much to 'build up' a Scarlet that is closer to $10k than $5k. On paper is that still a competitive price? IMO yes, but it's a far cry from $4750 which gets you started but not really a production ready piece of gear.



-A

I think this is a bit misleading. You say evf as if it has no viewing at all...

4750 gets you a 2.8" touch screen lcd, a wireless REDmote, a Side CF module, a travel charger, a battery, and an as of yet unknown way/module for using that battery. That's pretty much everything that you would get in most any other consumer camera purchase at, above, and under the price range.

Like Luis said, modularity aint' for everyone... but, it is certainly more than possible to get a working setup for 4750 plus the cost of recording media and any 3rd party support system that you deem appropriate for your needs should you want to go that route.

later,
jason

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I don't think either way is inherently better than the other as I'm a firm believer in the horses for courses mentality, but, as you said, comparing an out-of-the-box Scarlet to an out-of-the-box EX3 is a bit like apples to oranges

Gotcha - and I agree for the most part with that last point, looks like we were in some ways saying the same thing, from different perspectives.

In the end each system/choice has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Thing is - all depends on the specific users needs which things count as advantage or disadvantages.
:thumbsup:

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Gotcha - and I agree for the most part with that last point, looks like we were in some ways saying the same thing, from different perspectives.

In the end each system/choice has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Thing is - all depends on the specific users needs which things count as advantage or disadvantages.
:thumbsup:

agree 100%... people are quick to judge sometimes based on their own emotions/needs/wants, whatever.

I don't knock the 7d b/c it's not the right camera for me. In fact, it's a great little camera, and I'd love to shoot with it some... but, it's just not my cup of tea. Doesn't make it a bad camera for someone else

later,
jason

 

[chrislancaster]

was considering buying a scarlet ..

now i doubt it .. things that make scarlet suck

1. its a box..looks uncomfortable to hold
2. modular ..is it great or is it just expensive ..once you start adding things the price shoots up to the moon

anybody want to add up the price of a good kit ? i figured 13000 to 15000

3. work flow.. you better have a super computer with massive RAM and maybe even a red rocket that cost another 5k or so
and a lot of time to invest to figure out red cine x and the rest of the cryptic red code

4. change ...it's cool sometimes but after a while it starts to get to be a muddy mess

5. those mini primes... i have my doubts

6. No announcement means anything because Everything is subject to change

7. people are comparing the 7d(or is it 5d.. ahh who cares) to the One / Scarlet ..but its 2000 to 17500 / 4750+

The pros

about a million and we know them all already

I don't hate scarlet/red and I may buy one but now I am definitely looking at other brands. not a fanboy.

LOL flame me see if I care. Use to it.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

not gonna flame you, but at least you can take the attitude out of your posts. that's not asking all that much.

13-15k is going to be a pretty dang decked out kit for sure.

I did just get a pretty good system for about 3 grand with a lot of bells and whistles.... I'm handling 4k R3D's quite nicely in both REDCINEX and a trial of Vegas 9.0c with it. So, not as outrageously supercomputer as you make it sound, but yes... it's demanding stuff... that's not anything new though. In fact, it's just gotten better with time, now that there is pretty broad support in several NLE's and computers get faster and cheaper all the time.

7. People get into comparing stuff too much in my opinion. They want their 7d to be a red, or their hv20 to be an ex1, or whatver... I try not to get too wrapped up in all the camera comparisons beyond, what are the features, what do they do and will it work for me... Though, it can be fun sometimes, I ain't gonna lie

Later,
jason

 

[adkimery]

I think this is a bit misleading. You say evf as if it has no viewing at all...

4750 gets you a 2.8" touch screen lcd, a wireless REDmote, a Side CF module, a travel charger, a battery, and an as of yet unknown way/module for using that battery. That's pretty much everything that you would get in most any other consumer camera purchase at, above, and under the price range.

I'm not meaning to imply that there is no viewing at all, but LCD's aren't the best options for all locations which is why prosumer cameras (where the fixed Scarlet's price falls) have both an LCD and an EVF. Prosumer cameras also tend to come out of the box w/a way to hold the camera (the Scarlet is basically a box w/no handles or grips), a way to mount the camera on a tripod, a way to send signals in/out, etc.,. Red sells you a starting point so you can add what you need and skip what you don't while Sony/Panny sells you a 'complete', non-upgradeable unit.

Again, this is not a dig at Red as they are just offering up a different way to skin the cat. I'm just trying to dispel the idea that $4750 for a Scarlet will get you everything the EX1 or HVX200 has 'plus more' because that's just not true. If you want to match feature for feature as best you can the Scarlet will turn out to be the more expensive camera. That stands to reason though because the 3k, 2/3" sensor, frame rates, compression used, etc., will put Scarlet on top in terms of specs.


-A

 

[Jason Ramsey]

I see where you are coming from. I just think it's more than a "starting point"

I think a good substitution for the absolutely budget-minded potential purchaser would be to forgo the redmote and get the side handle instead. You get most of the same functions out of it for 200-400 more than the redmote, plus it'll hold a battery. And, you get a bit of ergonomics out of it. At least a budget-minded version of them more along the lines of a dslr setup... lcd and side handle kinda setup.

But, make no mistake... these are primarily cinema oriented camera's, so it stands to reason that they aren't housed in a traditional camcorder form-factor. Plus, the "modular" building blocks system doesn't really lend itself to that.. at least not at the starting gate. You gotta build the form factor you want. Certainly not going to work for some folks. I'm personally into the idea of needing a compact "dslr" type form factor one day, and a full-on shoulder mount rig with all the ins and outs, infinite record and battery time (via hot-swapping of both) another... That's attractive to me. Though, it doesn't mean it has to be attractive to everyone else

If you want to match feature for feature as best you can the Scarlet will turn out to be the more expensive camera. That stands to reason though because the 3k, 2/3" sensor, frame rates, compression used, etc., will put Scarlet on top in terms of specs.

Absolutely. and I agree 100% Rightly so, it should cost more.

Just like any other camera, some things you will get more of or better of, others not so much. So for the folks used to a particular form factor, that 4750 isn't going to get them there. Always compromises, and we're still a long way off from that mythical "perfect camera" for everyone...

But, what I'm looking for (just me) at the top of my priority list before sensor size and form factor, etc. is as close as I can get to a no-compromise image in terms of robustness and all-around quality that I can get with as wide a range of framerate options, at a reasonable price (in context) <insert your own definition of reasonable here>. This is looking very attractive to me from what I've seen, heard and been whispered to so far. That's b/c that's what is at the top of my list in terms of importance. Is it going to do everything I want? No. But, will it do the things that are most important to me very well? We'll have to wait and see when they get here, but so far... all signs point to yes.

I'm just pretty amazed that a few years ago it was HVX and EX1 and the like. Now it's 1500 dollar DSLR cine DOF, and 40,000 dollar Arri digital cams, and 5,000 dollar 3k RAW machines, and RED One, and 7,000 dollar 5k Cine Brains, etc, etc. There is just such a wide range of products out there and on the horizon that all do amazing jobs for their chosen users at their price points.

 

[ChipG]

Scarlet 3K will be out in 6ish months, it'll probably be another 2-3 months after that (providing there are no more delays) before anyone can get one because the Red guys have the option of buying the first ones so I'd bet by then (9ish months) a $2k computer will be fine for 3k footage. I think it's a fair amount to budget for a PC.

$8k-$10k would be the min amount IMO for a 3k fixed lens scarlet package including computer, that's just a few minimum options, extra battery and $2k for a computer. I don't think I'd have to invest in anymore software, I cut on Avid and do know it edits 4K Red.

So there is no screw hole in the bottom of a scarlet to mount it on a tripod? That doesn't sound right. Surely it has a 3/8 inch screw hole on the bottom?

 

[stephenvv]

Scarlet is NOT a 3k camera

Scarlet is NOT a 3k camera

People keep talking about "3K' with Scarlet. It's not a 3k camera compared to other cameras and this number is only useful internally within Red - it's very misleading to use this term relevant to other cameras.

All Red sensors are Bayer patterns and you lose resolution on debayering. Scarlet is 1080p class camera. 3K Scarlet footage should look wonderful at 1080p or 2k. But if you projected at 3K, it would be quite soft.

The Red One is a 3K camera when used in it's "4k" mode.

 

[nitsel]

Isn't it great to have choice? imagine a world with only one brand of camera or just microsoft os.. yak!
lol no offence to microsoft.

 

[William_Robinette]

1. its a box..looks uncomfortable to hold

Yes, but until you hold it how can you be sure of the way it handles? You are making assumptions based on a picture.

2. modular ..is it great or is it just expensive ..once you start adding things the price shoots up to the moon

anybody want to add up the price of a good kit ? i figured 13000 to 15000

What is a good kit? 3K to CF cards with 24/48k dual channel audio + power, control, and monitoring seems solid to me

3. work flow.. you better have a super computer with massive RAM and maybe even a red rocket that cost another 5k or so
and a lot of time to invest to figure out red cine x and the rest of the cryptic red code

Have you ever posted R3D's? I have. It's easy. It was easy 12 months ago, and we are still 6 months out.

4. change ...it's cool sometimes but after a while it starts to get to be a muddy mess

Are you suggesting camera makers stay still so as to not disturb the waters?

5. those mini primes... i have my doubts

Remains to be seen, but Jarred said himself they were fantastic glass. Do you think he would make statements like that if they weren't?

6. No announcement means anything because Everything is subject to change

Very true.

7. people are comparing the 7d(or is it 5d.. ahh who cares) to the One / Scarlet ..but its 2000 to 17500 / 4750+

Again, true. But you can understand why.

Have you used RED? It has it's problems for sure, but if you learn it like any other camera system I think one finds it is really not any harder. It is just different.

People keep talking about "3K' with Scarlet. It's not a 3k camera compared to other cameras and this number is only useful internally within Red - it's very misleading to use this term relevant to other cameras.

All Red sensors are Bayer patterns and you lose resolution on debayering. Scarlet is 1080p class camera. 3K Scarlet footage should look wonderful at 1080p or 2k. But if you projected at 3K, it would be quite soft.

The Red One is a 3K camera when used in it's "4k" mode.

RED One is 3.2K in 4K mode, and they have now released a 4.5K mode. Until you have seen 3K from scarlet projected I don't think you can really say if it is soft or not. And show me any 1080p camera that is resolving all that is stated. If it is I would bet you the aliasing would make it unusable.

 

[Chamber005]

One of the coolest things I've read is about remote focus pulling. That's just so awesome I can't even handle it...

I think the Scarlet is invaluable in that it screws with the competition. I still see people trying to sell their EX1s at close to full price because there just isn't anything that can compete with them. If the interchangeable Scarlet forces down the prices of the used EX3s and thus hurts the price of the EX1, that alone is enough to get excited about.

And I don't really agree with people here saying that the 2/3" is only a "complete" camera if you spend 10-15K. The body is under 3K. A couple of lenses and a few extras, at most you're looking at 6K -- still under the mark of an EX3.

In the end it's going to be about people like Phillip Bloom and some senior members here posting their take on this camera as it compares to the competition. I would be shocked if it doesn't blow all of the prosumer grade guys out of the water. And for the people who haven't jumped into the DSLR game, they probably never will once this cam is released (again, thus further driving down the price of used DSLRs). I fully expect many more firmware upgrades from a company like Red than I do from Canon, Nikon, etc -- those companies are worried about the next new camera. Red seems to be more concerned about building and selling the BEST camera they can and simply improving upon the existing model.