Salary vs hourly wages for crew members

At your budget level get the best you can find and try to stay away from the minimum wage ($100/day). I have done $500k film where the producers went the min wage for the crew route and was dealing with TOOOOONS of inexperienced crew members (we are talking camera assistants that had to be told to place marks or a grip that took 45 min to mount one arm... or ... a list goes on). Stay with medium low-to-medium rates which at your beget level starts at about $150-200 and 200-250 for keys. Some very valuable keys might get paid $300 but that's pretty much tops. Also be aware that the rate and the poll of candidates depends on the region and time of the year. In warm months here in NYC i have hard time sometimes finding crew at $250-300 level while during cold months (where there is less work) many will work for $150-200. Also i've noticed that the crews in LA tend to be a bit cheaper then in NYC.

(and thanks for compliments on my work)
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
At your budget level get the best you can find and try to stay away from the minimum wage ($100/day). I have done $500k film where the producers went the min wage for the crew route and was dealing with TOOOOONS of inexperienced crew members (we are talking camera assistants that had to be told to place marks or a grip that took 45 min to mount one arm... or ... a list goes on). Stay with medium low-to-medium rates which at your beget level starts at about $150-200 and 200-250 for keys. Some very valuable keys might get paid $300 but that's pretty much tops. Also be aware that the rate and the poll of candidates depends on the region and time of the year. In warm months here in NYC i have hard time sometimes finding crew at $250-300 level while during cold months (where there is less work) many will work for $150-200. Also i've noticed that the crews in LA tend to be a bit cheaper then in NYC.

(and thanks for compliments on my work)
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Is it just me, or does that kinda suck? How in the world would someone make a living at 150/day in NY? The only way I'd go as low as 250 is if I'm getting 6+ months of work or it's a really fantastic project. I think it's criminal to pay a freelancer less than 30/hr. My reasoning is:

30k annually is about the lowest you can pay an educated person in a reasonably urban setting.
30k annually is ~15/hr
X2 due to lack of benefits, withholding tax, company provided overhead, job security.
15 * 2= 30


Granted, I'm an editor and I don't live in NY, but anything under 250/day strikes me as really low.
 
me too. as i wrote earlier, i'm frequently very surprised at what people will accept. but if the budget is really that tight, you have to accept that you won't likely get very experienced people for that amount. it seems like false economy to me.
 
Just did a half day rate for a job, and never again. Not that the job was hard at all...but the producers got a hell of a deal. Considering two hours of travel, and going a bit over time on the shoot I got jobbed. Stupid me, I agreed to the deal in advance and will hopefully make up for it with an even easier shoot on Thursday. But never again, no half day rates unless its special circumstances!
 
Yes, but editor in NYC makes $500-650/day... Which considering that many of them even as freelancers work all the times (my gf is an editor so i know...) makes them some pretty penny. Now your editor is your "DP" of the post and you won't find too many DPs in NYC wanting to work for $500/day.

Also some of it has to do with the reality of long-term project. For instance raising the rate by just $50/day for one crew member on 24 days production cost the production $1200. Now do that for all 20 crew members and you just took away $24k from the film. Now i'm the last person who would advocate low rates. If the producer wants to pay $100 then i definitely don't give them numbers of my crew (i don't want the producer using my name to entice them to work for less they they should be getting at the minimum) but if you ever budgeted a film before (i have a number of times) then the hard reality hits you: you don't want to pay just the minimum as your pool of good candidates with experience shrinks but you can't really afford to pay top rates.


DaveD said:
Is it just me, or does that kinda suck? How in the world would someone make a living at 150/day in NY? The only way I'd go as low as 250 is if I'm getting 6+ months of work or it's a really fantastic project. I think it's criminal to pay a freelancer less than 30/hr. My reasoning is:

30k annually is about the lowest you can pay an educated person in a reasonably urban setting.
30k annually is ~15/hr
X2 due to lack of benefits, withholding tax, company provided overhead, job security.
15 * 2= 30


Granted, I'm an editor and I don't live in NY, but anything under 250/day strikes me as really low.
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robmneilson said:
Just did a half day rate for a job, and never again. Not that the job was hard at all...but the producers got a hell of a deal. Considering two hours of travel, and going a bit over time on the shoot I got jobbed. Stupid me, I agreed to the deal in advance and will hopefully make up for it with an even easier shoot on Thursday. But never again, no half day rates unless its special circumstances!
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Of course you did, that's a producer's job.
As the old joke goes....
"Two producers are sitting at a bar. A beautiful girl walks in and sits down a few seats away. Producer 1 looks at Producer 2 and says, I could screw her. Producer 2 looks at the girl and says.. out of what?"

When I have my producer hat on my job is to have every person on the set slightly underpaid. if the DP is worth $1k a day I'm going to try and get him for $650. If the MUA is worth $500, I'm going to try and get her for $300. That's the job.
 
Yep, makes me thing I should just be a producer! Although I doubt I would gain pleasure from screwing anyone...and would likely not make any money because of it!
 
it's the producer's job. it's also their job to know when to stop. eventually you'll run out of good screws.
 
I HATE producing, but somebody has to do it. I don't try to screw people really, but I do try to get everything for the absolute minimum cost. Sometimes to get what you want you have to pay up, but sometimes you can get a bargain. It's no different than buying gear. If I can get it here for $200 less and it's comparable quality, I'd be stupid to pay the higher price. It's all about value for the money.
 
Indeed, it has to be done "right".

DP wants $500 a day for example...

Me: John, I LOVE your work, I REALLY want you on this project, but gosh I just don't know if I can make that figure work. let me really crunch some numbers tonight and see what I can do....

Me: OK John, I cut this thing to the bone and if I take a little out of my own end I MIGHT be able to come up with $350, but I just don't see how I can squeeze more than that out of this budget. You're a genius, I know you'd bring so much to this project, can't we work something out?
 
Gonzo, the only reason you can get away wit such low rates is because your DP isn't experienced enough and thus he doesn't know the market (i don't know any experienced DP who charges $500), thus you are not really getting a great DP for $350 but rather just a DP, period, who might or might not be worth the $350. IN other words you really didn't do any deals here simply heard random number and payed random number.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Gonzo, the only reason you can get away wit such low rates is because your DP isn't experienced enough and thus he doesn't know the market (i don't know any experienced DP who charges $500), thus you are not really getting a great DP for $350 but rather just a DP, period, who might or might not be worth the $350. IN other words you really didn't do any deals here simply heard random number and payed random number.
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First, that was an arbitrary number. My DP worked my last film for $200 (talked down from $250) a day. It was meant as an example.

Actually, he's a union 1st AC/Focus Puller with almost 30 years in the business. He was one of the operators on the series 90210, B unit on several major studio films, and has done extensive work with NFL films.

I don't live in LA or New York (and neither does he anymore). He certainly still does work as an operator and 1st AC at union rates when jobs are around, but if his calendar is empty he'll take other gigs for much less than union rates.

I got a MUA on my last film with a ton of TV experience for free (just a kit fee). She didn't have much "film" work and wanted something for her resume.

Producing is all about bang for the buck.
 
Gonzo, i don't want to make it personal but i would also warn against your producing "tricks." Your make-up person paid $300 for valuable training (by not getting paid) while you were risking thousand of dollars worth of day if things didn't work out with her make-up skills and she ruined the day. This is simply not a smart way to allocate limited resources. Likewise hiring a person with 30 years of experience... in the field that is not relevant to why you hire him (AC'ing has nothing to do with DP'ing) is not the smartest move. In a way you got blinded with glossy Hollywood titles instead of making a calculated choice. Again, i don't want to make it personal but simply use your examples as examples of what potentially not do. Just because someone will work for $100/day doesn't necessary mean that it's the wises choice. Yes, you don't want to spend more than the budget allows but you also want to get stuff done and often going the cheapest rout is not the smartest.
 
there is a middle ground, between the polemics. most of us who have been in the bid'ness for a while have taken deals we shouldn't have, or just been burned, lied to or screwed. sometimes that leads you to draw hard lines, to preserve your reputation or position in the market, or just to preserve your self-respect. and in turn, sometimes that means missed opportunities to work on projects, or with people, that are good for you. in some way, good for you. maybe you're making enough money but the work you're doing isn't satisfying or challenging.

that leaves a lot of room for unscrupulous people to work in. there are producers i know, who i really like, who nickel and dime me every time. i know it's their job, and maybe i want to help them out. if they don't find concessions, the project won't happen. they figure that they have to ask for the best deal, and it's up to me to say what my bottom line is. take it or leave it, on both sides. from my point of view, if you're only calling me for the worst deals, that's a relationship not worth sustaining.

i've done a lot of work for people who are very shrewd business men/women, and i've worked for them when i knew they were making money off my willingness to cut them a deal. i needed the work, and/or experience, so i took it. that's not the real problem. over time, the problem becomes that these folks don't know when to stop. there has to be some give and take, and if you're only looking at the numbers it's inevitably a race for the bottom. there is always someone willing to do the work for less.

we don't have regular jobs. ultimately the business runs on reputation and relationships. unfortunately it's a buyer's market. but as a producer, i would think it's of some considerable value to foster fruitful relationships over time. unless you're producing s**t. if you don't know when you're getting a deal, and what you owe for that deal, you're not just an asshole, but an idiot.
 
Indeed there IS a middle ground.

I'm not "screwing" anybody, I am making an offer they can accept or refuse. I don't have gun to their head. It's also all based on budget. The most budget I have EVER had on a film was about $1500 per shooting day. I paid my DP $200 a day on that shoot, that's 13% of the budget, not too shabby when you put it in context. He was the single biggest expense on the entire film, and he knew it. I think that communicates to him that I valued what he brought to the table. If he doesn't want to work on something that low budget, he can always say no.

As to using a 1st AC/Focus Puller/Operator as a DP, that's micro budget filmmaking 101. It's what any producer with half a brain does on a micro budget project.

PAs WANT to be grips, 1st ACs WANT to be DPs, Sound assistants want to be THE sound guy, etc... They also frequently have acquired the skills for that "promotion" through their years of experience in their current position. They will often work for a bargain rate in order to get that DP credit on their resume. Do I get what I would get from a $2000 a day DP, maybe no (but maybe yes), but that doesn't really matter if I don't have the budget for a $2000 a day DP. Again, it's getting the best you can get with the money you have.
 
MPB said:
so you were getting $150/day?
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Me...
No, I got butkus. The few paid (commercial) shoots I have done have been pretty low paid so I DP'd them myself as that was the only way to make ANY money. On my (short) films I have been the executive producer meaning it was my money we were flushing down the toilet.
 
Since the OP is asking for real indie rates we should stay away from the speculations of for how supposedly cheaply things can be done.
 
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