Salary vs hourly wages for crew members

C

Craig_Tarry

Active member
Hello, I’m budgeting for a low-budget feature and it seems to me that the Production Dept. (Production Manager, 1st AD, 2nd AD, 2nd 2nd AD, etc.) should be on a salary, whereas the Camera operators, Grips, Electrics, Prop Master, etc. should be on hourly wages + overtime.

It just seems like the paper work that the production dept. does makes for a wide variety of hours and therefore makes overtime hard to figure.

Would you agree?
 
Yeah, don't do hourly...that's just going to bite you in the ass. If you go OT during any days (and you will) it's going to be a headache. Since it's low budget, just do a flat day rate.

Everytime I've done an hourly rate (and it's only been for corporate jobs) it becomes a huge pain in the ass. Not only do I have to track all my hours worked, the client will always try to nitpick hours from the invoice (well how many hours were rendering vs editing?). From now on, I only do day rates!
 
I budget on daily rate for my productions (low budget features). There enough problems on a LBF without having to spend more money accounting and on OT's which depending on what state your filming in Labor laws can be a HUGE pain in the butt. Flat rate 1099 self employed contractors, is the way to go. Shortens paper work by miles, keeps the fighting about hours off the radar on set, just all around lightens the load. I do daily verses weekly, yes it adds to my costs. But, it is the fairest I can be with my crew.
 
Thanks for the replies guys –
Ok, so instead of doing hourly, at say:
$30/hr x 8hrs = $240, then $30/hr x 1.5 OT = $45 x 4 (12 hour day) = $180 + $240 = $420 – offer perhaps $300/day flat rate (depending on the position, of course)
I remember when I was working in restaurants, we all loved OT, but our checks were taxed at a higher rate, so we got screwed in the end.

Do you know anything about SAG? The current weekly rate for SAG actors is $933/5days under the Modified Low Budget Agreement.
It says they get time and a half over 8 hours at the straight time rate (is that time and a half of $933 divided by 5? The per-day rate is $268).
It also says there’s no premium for a sixth day. So, I suppose if you’re shooting six day weeks, the sixth day would be paid at $268 + time and a half for OT.
Hope that didn’t get too confusing.
Anyway, the crew wages are looking at lot better, I think - Thanks
 
I will not do a Flat rate.
I will not do a 12hr day.
I don't care what kind of Paper work you have to do. This is my livelihood. My full time job.
 
Hit OT and you will find out what the hourly rate is fast. At least with a professional crew you will. 10-12 hours X1.5, 12+ hours X2.0.
 
Federal and state labor laws and the IRS have more to do with whether a crew member is a salaried employee or an independent contractor than does your desires or their preferences. Consult a labor lawyer - you may not have a choice in the matter.
 
I don't work for a flat rate and you'll find out that a lot of the good people don't either.
 
Ditto what Steve House said. States and the fed have definitions of what an employee is vs a independent contractor. This will effect workers comp, unemployment insurance, as well as federal income taxes. Generally the criteria include having a business license, filing taxes as a corp or as a self employed person, and being for the most part unsupervised. There is a ton of case law about this, and usually if there is a problem, the employer will end up on the hook.

Grant
 
Ok, let me ask you guys another question:
Look at the list of the following positions below. What do you consider are fair/good wages for a 90min. low budget, one location feature, with a 24-day shoot?
Say there are:
1. 3 days Exteriors around the yard
2. 3 Nights Exteriors around the yard
3. The rest Interiors shot during the day.
Say there’s full catering, insurance, workman’s comp, tax withholding, etc. etc. And I’m NOT talking about independent contractors, or being asked to defer wages or accept points instead of wages.
What would you expect, if it was well organized and you had all the help you needed and it was a screenplay you cared about?
Considering a Non-Union crew, what would you want to be paid, for the following positions, either hourly, daily, weekly, OT, what have you? I’d like your opinions on any or all of the jobs below. Thanks

1. Production Manager
2. AD
3. 2nd AD
4. DP
5. First AC
6. 2nd AC
7. DIT
8. Sound Mixer
9. Boom Operator
10. Script Supervisor
11. Gaffer
12. Best Boy Electric
13. Electric
14. Key Grip
15. Best Boy Grip
16. Grip
17. PA
 
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the "rules" are all over the place. first, when you pay $200/day for you G&E then it's assumed that it breaks down to 8 hours at $15-something then 4 hours of "pre-paid" OT then extra for the extra OT (about $30/h using our example). The reason why some are scared of union employees is because of the OT. Union G&E makes $25/h - for first 8 hours; then 1.5x for next 2 ($38/h); then 2x for next 2 ($50/h). So relatively low hourly wage grows exponentially (about $400/12 h).
 
The imaginary budget would be $400,000, not counting post. A one location 24day shoots, with a 90page script, with a non-union crew.
I was thinking of at least $300.day for G&E. Since there’s no tear down/load up/drive to new location/set up going on, I figured to work less than 12hr days on a regular basis and so it would be easier on everyone, but maybe that’s wishful thinking.
Don’t you paid your Key grip more than your Best Boy grip?
Don’t you pay your Gaffer more than the Best Boy electric? And if so, how much more?
Isn’t the Production Manager paid more than the Production Coordinator? How much more?
That’s the kind of things I’m wondering. Of course this is all conjecture at this point, since all I’ve got is a script, but I thought I could get an idea of a starting point.

Oh, and I checked out your website, Patryk. Very impressive. great quality.
 
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OT isn't just an issue with union shoots. anyone who works a flat rate is inexperienced or an idiot. or just really desperate. anyway, if they don't know what they're doing, that's going to cost you far more than OT. you may be able to sell a flat rate to less experienced assistents, etc. people who need experience and contacts most of all.

and you WILL go over your 12 hours. that's why no one works a flat rate.

however, the rate itself is more easily negotiable.
 
MPB said:
OT isn't just an issue with union shoots. anyone who works a flat rate is inexperienced or an idiot. or just really desperate. anyway, if they don't know what they're doing, that's going to cost you far more than OT. you may be able to sell a flat rate to less experienced assistents, etc. people who need experience and contacts most of all.

and you WILL go over your 12 hours. that's why no one works a flat rate.

however, the rate itself is more easily negotiable.
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Ok then, talk to me about the rate itself, considering time-and-a-half over 8hrs and double time for over 12hrs. I’d still like to get some ideas for the various positions listed above. Thanks

Oh, and I’ve read in “Film and Video Budgets” by Micheal Wiese, that the Gaffer’s rate should be the same as the Key Grip’s and the Best Boy Electric’s rate the same as the Best Boy Grip’s and so on – do you agree? Thanks again
 
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Craig_Tarry said:
Ok then, talk to me about the rate itself, considering time-and-a-half over 8hrs and double time for over 12hrs. I’d still like to get some ideas for the various positions listed above. Thanks

Oh, and I’ve read in “Film and Video Budgets” by Micheal Wiese, that the Gaffer’s rate should be the same as the Key Grip’s and the Best Boy Electric’s rate the same as the Best Boy Grip’s and so on – do you agree? Thanks again
Click to expand...

Definitely. They're two seperate departments, and they are both the same level in terms of hierarchy, so their rates should be the same.

For the rates themselves, a good rate on a non union feature in the bay area might be 350 for keys, 300 for your best boys, and 250-275 for your juicers and grips. I've worked on a lot of non union features in the bay area and I've really only been on one job where I was getting 300 a day as a best boy electric, and the union was trying to make it flip since they had enough money to do it...all the other features I've done were like 150-200 a day for your keys.

These are all based on 12 hour days too, you'd start with that and work backwards to figure out their hourly rate.

Just saying, if you did do your movie based on 10 hour days, 5 day weeks, I'm sure you'd have a lot easier time finding better guys for cheaper as well.
 
Craig_Tarry said:
Ok then, talk to me about the rate itself, considering time-and-a-half over 8hrs and double time for over 12hrs. I’d still like to get some ideas for the various positions listed above. Thanks

Oh, and I’ve read in “Film and Video Budgets” by Micheal Wiese, that the Gaffer’s rate should be the same as the Key Grip’s and the Best Boy Electric’s rate the same as the Best Boy Grip’s and so on – do you agree? Thanks again
Click to expand...

what Ryan said. i don't know what to tell you as far as numbers for different positions. i haven't done all of those jobs and frankly, i'm frequently surprised what folks will take as a day rate. but i would reiterate, crew is more willing to deal on the base rate when you're talking about a 10, or even a 12, when they know you're paying OT beyond that. OT keeps everyone honest. 12 will cost more than 10, though, obviously.

the greatest card you're playing is the total number of days of work you're offering. but again, as Ryan said, limiting the work week to 5 days can make the difference to many key players on whether they take the job or not. long days and low pay with no recovery time is just miserable. along those lines, short turn-arounds - ending late and starting early - make for a tired, unhappy crew. if you place limits on your schedule (which is a hard thing to do), crew may be more willing to accept lower pay. if you find leeway in the schedule, give it back to the crew. stagger call times when you can. don't get everyone out of bed at 4am if it isn't absolutely necessary. but recognize that there are certain positions (AC, for example) that will always be first to start and last to finish, etc. you're going to pay those people OT, even when everyone else is on a regular day.
 
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Thanks a lot guys, that gives me a much better overview of crew needs and what’s important. I really want to take care of my crew while stretching the available dollars. Very good advice, much appreciated.
 
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