Sad Craigslist-ing:

If people are desperate and stupid enough to do this kind of work for free, then there will always be producers who will take advantage of their desperation and stupidity. Why shouldn't they? It's a cart before the horse thing. If there weren't people who responded, they would not run these kinds of ads.

Dan
 
I'm personally considering trying to get some people to come onto my production for free in and around Chicago, but for me it's not just about selling someone on credits or experience, I'd like to actually build lasting relationships with other indie-minded folks who might want to work on this project and the next and the next. I've already gotten lots of artists who are committed and happy and who have become friends, but now I'm looking more towards the technicians.

For that reason, though, I think finding people who are either actually IN college or who have graduated but are not able to support themselves working in their field (like me) are the people I'm going to seek out.

There are so few people I actually interact with on a daily basis simply because I have no time for demanding relationships (I pretty much have my best friend, my girl, my family and my cats). So for me (and I'm sure there will be others like me out there), it's about forming friendships with people who I can also develop projects with.

Personally I think if you're looking for a TECHNICIAN (not say an actor or musician) to work for free, and you yourself are not a well known technician, hopefully there is some plight in there for establishing relationships.

Egos aside, film is about community -- it's about people being able to come and work together for a common goal. I'm sure in all of Chicago I can find a couple people who have the same drive and passion and who can put their egos aside for the sake of creating something worthwhile.

In my world everyone has to work a job. If someone's job isn't working in film (yet) and they love to spend their free time doing artistic stuff with artistic, professional, nice people, at the very least we're a community of people all coming together to do something on a Saturday besides sitting at a bar and getting hammered.
 
But let's be real here, people. Do you not really care enough about your project that you'll bring in people who can't do the job right? I'm sure there are a lot of you just out of college that are fine, but a lot more who do insufferably stupid things. If you have a project that you're really all about, then why don't you pay the money necessary to hire the professionals that make sure it doesn't look like **** in the end?
 
I think the problem is they didn't really give much info on the project. It could end up being a really great project that many in this thread would jump at being a part of in some way but they don't share enough info to sell it.

Also wanted to add that many people that do documentary films don't do them for the money but because they like the message or subject matter a lot, there is often more heart involved in it. I'm speaking as someone working on a documentary, it's a lot of work. Althought it's 80 hours, that's 80 hours of shooting and being out there trying to capture all those interviews. It doesn't even sound like they are asking for much, just someone to sort it and hand it back to someone to cut out the best parts.



If you want to check out a 12 minute sneak preview of a documentary we are working on that is scheduled to be completed in 2010...

"If you had one minute to share something from your life, what would you share?"
http://vimeo.com/8384498
 
subtleinspiration said:
But let's be real here, people. Do you not really care enough about your project that you'll bring in people who can't do the job right? I'm sure there are a lot of you just out of college that are fine, but a lot more who do insufferably stupid things. If you have a project that you're really all about, then why don't you pay the money necessary to hire the professionals that make sure it doesn't look like shi* in the end?
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Ironically I've found that experience has little to do with regards a technician's ability to create a fine finished product.

Experience comes in when you're talking about managing and troubleshooting. It's surprising how many times two people with the same software/equipment can produce the same results regardless of professional experience.

I'd much rather have a kid with enthusiasm, passion, drive and talent work with me on a project rather than toss out a big chunk of change to someone because they've done XYZ projects. Those people should be working on multi-million dollar pictures if they've done so many projects, they shouldn't even be hanging out in the same hemisphere as micro-budget indie world stuff.

It's just like any technical job. You got guys working at a company for 20 years losing their jobs to kids just out of college. Their innate and learned abilities are identical, the only thing the kid probably hasn't obtained yet is the ability to overcome unlearned situations (or, wisdom).

I would never hire a comic book artist based on their past credits (unless thier name would help me sell books). I would only ever base it on the art -- which might only be a single page with a few panels, especially if that young artist is willing to do what they do best at no cost to the project.

Technicals and the arts are harsh businesses. Information, software and equipment is available to anyone who wants it. Innate talent will always be a great divider, but next to that is always going to be passion, drive and a desire to be prolific in your chosen field -- the desire to work consistently for the love of the work.

Ask anyone in computers. You can't just show up anymore because you have the same level of expertise as the next guy. You have to love it and have a drive for it to succeed. Technical artists have always only been able to thrive this way. Regardless of age, you're not going to see anyone working at Pixar who does not live and breathe animation.
 
With all due respect, Chamber005, I think you are dead wrong (I've worked in the computer industry too). I've come across lots of people with passion, drive, and zeal who are completely inept in what they try to do. The people losing their jobs to 20 year old kids aren't losing their jobs because the kids have more passion...

...it's because they're CHEAPER!

And the comic book illustration is further example of how you don't get the whole business aspect of this industry. People who read and are passionate about comic books know their artists and authors. You're telling me that you'd pass on an established artist who already has a fallowing in favor of an unknown? Would you still pass if it meant the difference between an online-only publication with a few hundred readers vs. a nationally available printing that is read by thousands or millions?
 
Chamber005 said:
Experience comes in when you're talking about managing and troubleshooting. It's surprising how many times two people with the same software/equipment can produce the same results regardless of professional experience.
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You know, if you give me the same equipments as an ASC level DP with 20+ years of experience I can probably light the shot just as well as he can, but it would probably take me many more days of trial and errors, if not weeks. That's what experience comes down to; you've already made those mistakes somewhere in your career and you just saved yourself time on your next project by not making them again. Give the job to a newbie and he might be able to come up with similar results eventually, but you're ultimately costing yourself time and money in the long run and you're inviting disaster if something unexpected comes up.
 
Been there, done that (watched my business be washed out by a flood of college kids with Mac Quadra 700s) with my color prepress business in 1993-94. Now it's happening to the video business. Darn, those cheap $7K camcorders!
Realistically, as a service business, the video industry is in its twilight. I think we are all going to have to become content producers in order to survive in the 21st century. Have ya'll written your movie scripts yet? I'm working on mine.
 
Huy Vu said:
You know, if you give me the same equipments as an ASC level DP with 20+ years of experience I can probably light the shot just as well as he can, but it would probably take me many more days of trial and errors, if not weeks. That's what experience comes down to; you've already made those mistakes somewhere in your career and you just saved yourself time on your next project by not making them again. Give the job to a newbie and he might be able to come up with similar results eventually, but you're ultimately costing yourself time and money in the long run and you're inviting disaster if something unexpected comes up.
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Well.....

Here's the thing. ASC DPs do things that we would never even begin to know how to accomplish. Things that amaze me when I see them implimented. Forexample: they light to the footcandle. Preplanned, on paper. Contrast adjusted on paper for the stock, processing, and individual doing the processing.

I know I can't light with that much accuracy yet. We might given enough time accomplish good lighting, but we may not know why, like they they do. They KNOW why its good.
 
subtleinspiration said:
With all due respect, Chamber005, I think you are dead wrong (I've worked in the computer industry too). I've come across lots of people with passion, drive, and zeal who are completely inept in what they try to do. The people losing their jobs to 20 year old kids aren't losing their jobs because the kids have more passion...

...it's because they're CHEAPER!

And the comic book illustration is further example of how you don't get the whole business aspect of this industry. People who read and are passionate about comic books know their artists and authors. You're telling me that you'd pass on an established artist who already has a fallowing in favor of an unknown? Would you still pass if it meant the difference between an online-only publication with a few hundred readers vs. a nationally available printing that is read by thousands or millions?
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That's only marginally true. We can pretty much apply it across the board. The younger sales person is going to get a smaller percentage, but the old sales guys aren't getting kicked out of the industry because they're obtaining higher percentages (and thus a company doesn't want to expend lead prices on them), they're losing out because talent is talent, education is education. In a battle of wisodm vs passion, wisdom is always going to draw the short straw, whether that's good or bad. And hey, old guys can be passionate too, the problem is that sometimes they have trouble pricing themselves competitively and are sometimes too old to get into something just for the sake of doing it and forming industry relationships.

As to comics, I specifically noted that UNLESS the artist's name was going to in itself increase book sales, there is no way I'd pay someone with more experience more money than someone with less experience less money (talent/page layouts all being equal).

Of course if you have a multi-million dollar budget you should be hiring people that fit in that kind of budget, people who can help to ensure the schedule stays tight (via their experience). But when you're talking about micro budget stuff (1K-50K), time is the filmmaker's most valuable asset (e.g. no one is sitting around counting the interest or anxious for a return other than the filmmaker and those souls good enough to "gift" funds).

If anyone anywhere is asking for anyone to work for little to no pay, they're doing a micro budget piece and will get micro budget assistance -- folks who, like the micro budget filmmaker, will probably do some growing on-set. But that's why it's so important not only to bring on people who have the same passion as the filmmaker, but also who the filmmaker actually LIKES! The micro budget arena, IMO, should be more than just about making a picture, it should be about forming lasting bonds that are revisited again and again.

Anyone who has ever complained about an ad like this is NOT the person an ad like this was directed at. This kind of ad is meant for people who are looking to do creative things for the sake of doing creative things, people who want to form relationships in the industry and who want to enhance their reel, hopefully in that order. I can't help but think that people who get mad about these kinds of ads are people who should be (by their own position) working paying jobs and can't find them. Either that or it's just random trolling.

Either way, I think these kinds of ads are every bit as valid as a paying gig ad. Different ads apply to different levels of professional achievement, though professional achievements does not necessarily ensure that someone will get the job over someone else who is of an equal "talent" with lesser accomplishments.

I mean, LOL, Andrew Kramer got hired to work on Star Trek. He didn't study after effects at any school and had done zero industry work. Yet his creator owned stuff was enough to get him hired for the gig.

See, that's the opposing end -- someone who on paper doesn't deserve to work on a multi-million dollar picture but got the chance to.
 
Chamber005 said:
the old sales guys aren't getting kicked out of the industry because they're obtaining higher percentages (and thus a company doesn't want to expend lead prices on them), they're losing out because talent is talent, education is education. In a battle of wisdom vs passion, wisdom is always going to draw the short straw, whether that's good or bad.
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Bullshit.

As to comics, I specifically noted that UNLESS the artist's name was going to in itself increase book sales, there is no way I'd pay someone with more experience more money than someone with less experience less money (talent/page layouts all being equal).
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In the real world, all things are not/ The mostly likely scenario is that you'd like to hire the more experienced individual because he has the better art, but that your budget dictates you go with the guy that has the "ok" art.


If anyone anywhere is asking for anyone to work for little to no pay, they're doing a micro budget piece and will get micro budget assistance -- folks who, like the micro budget filmmaker, will probably do some growing on-set. But that's why it's so important not only to bring on people who have the same passion as the filmmaker, but also who the filmmaker actually LIKES! The micro budget arena, IMO, should be more than just about making a picture, it should be about forming lasting bonds that are revisited again and again.
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If you're working on a microbudget then you should be doing all this yourself instead of asking other people to work for you for free. Where's the indication that you'll ever have anything more than a microbudget, thus being allowed to pay anyone who has ever worked with you in the past on a future project?


Anyone who has ever complained about an ad like this is NOT the person an ad like this was directed at. This kind of ad is meant for people who are looking to do creative things for the sake of doing creative things, people who want to form relationships in the industry and who want to enhance their reel, hopefully in that order.
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Let's be honest here. Most of these projects will not enhance anyone's reel because a lot of them become an embarrassingly bad production. Why be a small cog in a creative wheel when the wheel is square and filled with dings.

Either way, I think these kinds of ads are every bit as valid as a paying gig ad. Different ads apply to different levels of professional achievement, though professional achievements does not necessarily ensure that someone will get the job over someone else who is of an equal "talent" with lesser accomplishments.
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It's one thing to offer an opportunity. It's another to ask people to slave away and potentially have to own software and equipment that runs into the thousands of dollars, or, hell, even to have to drive to a location every day like a normal job yet even give them any money for gas.

I mean, LOL, Andrew Kramer got hired to work on Star Trek. He didn't study after effects at any school and had done zero industry work. Yet his creator owned stuff was enough to get him hired for the gig. See, that's the opposing end -- someone who on paper doesn't deserve to work on a multi-million dollar picture but got the chance to.
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Um, from what I've been able to find, he designed a title card for the DVD commercial. Hardly that exciting.
 
Internships are one thing, but too often you'll get people looking to take advantage of the gullible for their **** projects on Craigslist. Projects that will neither enhance a reel or get someone a good contact in the industry.

That you can find good stuff on Craigslist, I won't deny, but people need to use discretion.

And, again, how are people supposed to pay the rent if they are knee deep in unpaid production work? Are you supposed to juggle 2-3 jobs in addition to this unpaid work? Doesn't that burn out people?
 
TimurCivan said:
Well.....

Here's the thing. ASC DPs do things that we would never even begin to know how to accomplish. Things that amaze me when I see them implimented. Forexample: they light to the footcandle. Preplanned, on paper. Contrast adjusted on paper for the stock, processing, and individual doing the processing.

I know I can't light with that much accuracy yet. We might given enough time accomplish good lighting, but we may not know why, like they they do. They KNOW why its good.
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Hey, give me a year and I can do that too. Per shot of course :evil:
 
I will tell you, as I have let the conversation roll to see where it goes, I have issues with what some are saying. Nothing personal. I initially responded to a CL ad about an action film a few years ago. Today, that poster is my business partner, and he and I have made some amazing films. I have gotten paid work based on our relationship.

But there is the opposing situation where I have done work from CL and gotten jack sh@t.

The thing that bothers me is I am not given the choice to respond or not. Somebody that may have their panties in a twist because they cannot get paid work flags it outright. I disagree that CL allows this to happen. Give the reader the choice to decide whether they want to decline or not.

Everyone here that has said "They should be flagged" has not considered the flip side of the equation. You may have your reel finished and polished, but many people do not. Suggesting that people be denied access to projects to finish their reels only shows your competitiveness to shut up-and-comers out of the industry. Understood, competition breeds animosity. Personally, not my cup of tea, but I do understand business, so I understand your position. And by saying all projects should be paid is effectively shutting many CL projects out. Sorry, emerging film-makers who may be geniuses at what they do, cannot always have a budget to pay you for your services. You have to decide for yourself if the project is worth your time. Saying otherwise is conceited and arrogant. Don't think you know what is best for me. I don't need your assistance in that. Allow me to decide if I want to do it or not.

Sorry, I disagree with you making the choice for me, not only vehemently, but forcefully. The independent film industry is based on talented people coming together under a low or non-existent budget. Unfortunately too many people, maybe including some DVXUsers(?), forget how they got their start. They get comfortable, or over competitive. They think that by occluding the opportunities for others, they can better their own positions. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Basically, when it is boiled down to the bare minimum, the real reason for flagging is because of a personal issue. Claiming "the greater good" is not an objective reason for doing this. Even being screwed on a project is education. And flagging because "it didn't sound right" or "they should pay" only assumes that there is money to be found or that you think you are good enough to close the market. Even if you are not. Sorry, you may be good, but you will never really be good enough to legitimately close the market.
 
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subtleinspiration said:
Bullshi*.



In the real world, all things are not/ The mostly likely scenario is that you'd like to hire the more experienced individual because he has the better art, but that your budget dictates you go with the guy that has the "ok" art.




If you're working on a microbudget then you should be doing all this yourself instead of asking other people to work for you for free. Where's the indication that you'll ever have anything more than a microbudget, thus being allowed to pay anyone who has ever worked with you in the past on a future project?




Let's be honest here. Most of these projects will not enhance anyone's reel because a lot of them become an embarrassingly bad production. Why be a small cog in a creative wheel when the wheel is square and filled with dings.



It's one thing to offer an opportunity. It's another to ask people to slave away and potentially have to own software and equipment that runs into the thousands of dollars, or, hell, even to have to drive to a location every day like a normal job yet even give them any money for gas.



Um, from what I've been able to find, he designed a title card for the DVD commercial. Hardly that exciting.
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First off, I think working on ANY production, for a technician, is improving their reel. If they do, say, an effects shot, that shot is part of their reel (the film they worked on is part of their resume). For actors (unlike effects artists, DPs, etc) the experience and the credit is a necessary step in furthering their career (whether the movie was crap or not).

Personally I don't think you're giving indie filmmakers enough credit, nor are you giving people's ability to tell the crap projects from the good projects any credit. Most actors or technicians applying for a job (free or not) can usually get access to the script and the director. If you don't like the script or the director, of course you shouldn't take that job.

For some reason people apply a completely different set of rules to film than they do almost every other creatively collaberative art. Guys get together and make comic books without the artist paying the writer or vice versa all the time. Community theatre? The difference with film is that you can take 2 years to finish a project if you want (because budget may not allow for a schedule, per se) because the people donating their time are probably donating time that they would have spent playing video games or hanging out at bars. But instead, they, like the filmmaker, would rather be doing something more productive and artistic with their time, paid or unpaid.

When did everyone stop wanting to create something and instead decided that money is the main motivation in art? Just a bizarre and creatively destructive mind set to have, especially in the indie world.

(And Kramer did the opening titles in Star Trek. They mention it in the commentary when his work comes up on the screen)

Again, if you're already working on multi-million dollar pictures, you have no need to work on projects with people to form relationships, experience or credit. You're already being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do what it is you do. You will help make good multi-million dollar pictures and the guys who are still establishing their reels, etc. will help make good micro-budget pictures. The tiers are pretty clear in all this. Guys making hundreds of thousands per year = that line; guys who haven't had much work yet = this line.
 
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