Sad Craigslist-ing:

Doc Bernard

Doc Bernard

Indie Arms Member
RE: FINAL CUT PRO EDITORS NEEDED - (Wow. Really?)

Date: 2010-01-05, 1:51AM PST
Reply to: gigs-agpza-1538021933@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

I have never done one of these before - but fellow CL followers PLEASE assist me in flagging this idiotic person!

NO PAY for an experienced editor? Which MAY lead to DEFERRED PAY??

Puh-lease! I'm not even an editor and I can see that this is a thinly veiled exploitation scheme. Please help me flag and delete this poor excuse of an attempt to abuse a talented, hard working, and financially-worthy skill.

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ORIGINAL POST:

FINAL CUT PRO EDITORS NEEDED (North Hollywood/Burbank)
Date: 2010-01-05, 1:08AM PST
Reply to: gigs-pvvux-1538013010@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

Seeking editors with strong Final Cut Pro skills to assist with rough assembly cut of an all-new documentary relating to an established horror series. Unpaid internship but may lead to deferred pay as assistant editor depending on skills and ability to deliver on a timely basis. 80+ hours of interview need to be put on the line; all bytes are fully annotated in existing transcripts.

Great opportunity for film students seeking credit on high-profile project.

Please send resume, references and # of days/weeks available.

* Location: North Hollywood/Burbank
* it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
* Compensation: no pay

Location: Wow. Really?
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: no pay



Sorry, I will not flag. The poster was honest about what they were needing. Stop thinking that only union or paid gigs need to be posted. Don't like it, don't respond. Simple. I am not interested in the job, either. But someone might be. For experience or credit. Who knows. But stop acting conceited, like you own Craigslist. This is not a "everyone gets money" site. It is a valuable tool for those who want experience, even if it is a negative experience. If you have so much time to flag this post, complaining about the terms, it's no wonder you don't have work in the first place.

Posting this and the other one so it will remain in cyberspace. Too bad you don't want to give your real name and own your comments.

Doc Bernard

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: no pay
 
What? 80+ hours of interviews need to be put on the line? For free? Bahahahaaa. Sorry but that cracks me up. I could understand for free if it was a lower volume of content but that is just too much. Hehe oh well I guess good luck to him on finding somebody or I hope the person that does the job learns a valuable lesson. hehe.
 
Heck, people ask actors to work for free all the time, I don't think an editor or effects artist or make-up artist or musician should feel any different. Bottom line, if you have well paying jobs you don't need credits, exposure, new business relationships or experience for the sake of experience anymore (and deferred pay, I think, is probably not much of an incentive for someone doing a no-budget project).

I think someone just out of college, an EDITOR at that (not a technical artist in the strictest sense), would be much like an actor in their desire to gain real world experience and credits.

It's weird that so many people (but especially those just starting out) in this industry expect to actually get paid for doing work. In any other business there are years of internships, low to no pay jobs, networking and relationship building that occurs, sometimes for the first entire decade before someone should expect to be making a decent income.

With something like an indie film, that should be viewed by most novices (and hopefully some pseudo-professionals too) like building a house together where someone else has already purchased the land and materials. Working on that house builds their portfolio, builds relationships, it MAY see them some monies, but that should be the last thing on their mind.

I think it's so funny that in the indie world writers and directors are expected to show up and put in a million hours to have a project see the light of day, but the effects artist (or, in this case editor) would sit in the corner and pout about how much money they're not getting paid -- an "editor" just out of college, mind you. lol

People in the film community could take a note from the business community. In business you're looking at 6 years of college (the latter 2 years of that being at a top 20 business school) and at MINIMUM 2 full years of working for FREE (e.g. interning). After 8 years of working and learning for NO PAY (and, in most cases, paying out a lot yourself), you then have a CHANCE at competing for a professional gig.

People who are in filmmaking in any capacity to get rich quick should go work at McDonalds, live at home, and spend their salary on lottery tickets. The only way anyone has ever made it in this business is by, in the beginning, doing it all for free -- until someone seeks them out and asks to pay them for what it is they do.
 
Chamber005 said:
Heck, people ask actors to work for free all the time, I don't think an editor or effects artist or make-up artist or musician should feel any different. Bottom line, if you have well paying jobs you don't need credits, exposure, new business relationships or experience for the sake of experience anymore (and deferred pay, I think, is probably not much of an incentive for someone doing a no-budget project).
Click to expand...

If I want to work for free, I'll go do it at Warner Brothers, or HBO. I am not about to work for nothing, for someone who can barely offer me a decent film credit.
 
Chamber005 said:
It's weird that so many people...expect to actually get paid for doing work.
Click to expand...
Yeah don't you just hate that. Like when you hire a plumber or a mechanic they actually want to be paid for their services. Who do these people think they are expecting money in return for their time and effort??? They have no real value. I mean if I really wanted to I could fix my toliet or my car myself, so why should I pay them? I once asked a house painter to paint my house for free because he had only been painting houses for a couple of years. Since he didn't have much experience I was doing him a huge favor by giving him the chance to gain valuable experience. This guy declined my offer!!! Can you believe it? What a jerk.
 
Oh for...

I'm with doc on this one. Fine it's no pay, fine he mentioned maybe deferral, fine it's a lot of work. But he's not asking for a professional. He said students looking for credit and experience. He's being honest.

As for Perone saying "I'd rather work for warner bros" well you go do that. I live nowhere near warner bros, I don't want to be getting people coffee with a promise of moving up as an excuse just to keep me around. If I want experience as an editor I'll take crappy editing jobs like this. It may not be fun but it puts something on your reel. Who wants to hire an editor that has experience getting coffee?

We all need experience when starting, we all need something on our reel, and this is the type of thing students/graduates need. In fact I hardly see these posted and wish there were more. I know if they're willing to pay, there's no way I'll be getting the job without any experience. Sure some will be willing to pay me, but I'm sure there are many people with far more experience and more to show that will do it for the same price. The only paid editing gig I got because I was willing to work for almost nothing compared to the next guy.

Not to mention that I did get a job from working for free. I replied to something on craigslist, just PA's for some music video for no pay. So I went on, learned a lot, but then from there got pulled onto a paid gig on a feature, then a paid gig on a TV pilot, and loads and loads of contacts with the Montreal film community...
 
Welcome to production in 2010. This is not going to get any less common guys, it is going to become more and more common.

Tools getting cheaper + amount of people who want to "be in production" vs. actual paying gigs reducing combined with an audience and clients who will accept 'good enough' quality = this.

Dan
 
Also I think there is a growing "entitlement" problem happening, especially with younger folks who are just out of college. It's like the demon seed baby boomers spawned an ocean of epically lethargic whiners. Whenever I bring up this argument people always mention plumbers when I'm talking about apprentinces. If I was hiring Stephen Spielberg to be 1st AD on a film I'm making, well then I'd probably have to shell out a pretty penny. But we're talking about people who maybe have a single reel, have worked on one or two projects (at most).

People graduate (or teach themselves things) nowadays and expect to immediately be recognized and compensated for their "value" when, despite their expertise, really have no proven value at all. The film (or whatever project it is) is the thing that GIVES them value, it is the way in which they PROVE themselves worth spending large amounts of money on. The same way 2 or 3 years of free interning provides value to someone with a graduate degree in business.

And as another poster mentioned, you can go and intern at Warner Bros getting coffee for some proof reader's assistant to the assistant or you can intern on something you can actually send to Warner Bros' film department and say, "Hello my name is ____, I helped create this."
 
Chamber005 said:
And as another poster mentioned, you can go and intern at Warner Bros getting coffee for some proof reader's assistant to the assistant or you can intern on something you can actually send to Warner Bros' film department and say, "Hello my name is ____, I helped create this."
Click to expand...

So the only way to intern at a production studio is getting coffee? Well if that is the scenario you are putting forth, then yes, hawking yourself out for free is viable.

I've spent nearly 10 years learning my craft on the job. I didn't do film school, and have had to learn it all the hard way. But you know what? I've enjoyed it, and I've learned. For someone fresh out of school, sure working for "credit" is viable. But make sure that credit is something that is going to HELP you.

This is exactly my issue with people with no experience setting out to make these big films. Do a demo reel. Do a short, do a podcast for goodness sakes. LEARN something. And if a job comes along that is no or low pay and it will further your career, jump on it. But for the love of GOD, editing 80 hours of interviews is doing nothing but bending yourself over. You may see it differently, and that's fine. But that's how I see it.
 
PerroneFord said:
So the only way to intern at a production studio is getting coffee? Well if that is the scenario you are putting forth, then yes, hawking yourself out for free is viable.

I've spent nearly 10 years learning my craft on the job. I didn't do film school, and have had to learn it all the hard way. But you know what? I've enjoyed it, and I've learned. For someone fresh out of school, sure working for "credit" is viable. But make sure that credit is something that is going to HELP you.

This is exactly my issue with people with no experience setting out to make these big films. Do a demo reel. Do a short, do a podcast for goodness sakes. LEARN something. And if a job comes along that is no or low pay and it will further your career, jump on it. But for the love of GOD, editing 80 hours of interviews is doing nothing but bending yourself over. You may see it differently, and that's fine. But that's how I see it.
Click to expand...

I second that. Anyone who's going to ask you to do that much work for free probably doesn't know what they're doing in the first place, and what you work on won't be much help to your career. The only person I'll work for free is, is myself. I've never done any work for someone else for least nominal pay. Unless you're a drooling idiot it's not too hard to get a paying, entry level position in the film business. You're better off fetching coffee for a real company and working your way up than doing freebees for someone who probably has as little experience as you do.
 
My only issue with the ad is that they want someone with solid FCP skills and experience, but it's for college students or newbies willing to work for free. It's a bit of an oxymoron. Either one or the other, you can't really have it both ways.

Personally, I don't have a problem working for free money-wise if there is some other tangible reward... i.e. a cause I support, the experience is somehow going to be so enriching so as to make up for the time spent I could have put towards making money to pay the mortgage, etc etc. That doesn't seem to be the case here. Nothing in the ad makes me want to do it for free, and the requirements for being a student with solid FCP skills makes me think that the person posting it really may not know what they're doing... especially the part they threw in about it being a high profile project. If it's high profile, then you should be able or willing to pay something for it, or else be happy with college students who doesn't quite know what they're doing yet. I have a hunch this person is either being dishonest with you or themselves, or at least has an overinflated opinion of this "high profile project".

But hey, at least they're somewhat honest. I've seen FFFFFAAAAAAARRRRRRR worse and professionally insulting ads before.
 
How do they expect you to pay your rent while working those jobs, huh?

I can understand getting some experience, but goddamn, you have to eat too, you know.

EDIT: And how many times will you have to drive to the location? What if it's kinda out-of-the-way? What if they want you to have your own equipment?
 
I'ts been difficult to land an internship at a high level production or TV studio. all the out of work professionals are jumping at the same opportunities as the college grads cause those types of internships (assuming you put in the time) lead to paid jobs.
if your the employer for an internship, would you hire a less experienced college student or the experienced professional to work for free?
 
The funny thing for those of you who haven't worked in Hollywood is thinking that the staff at the studios actually make films. They don't. I've spent a good portion of my time since 2004 on all of the studios lots and things there are quite different than most of you would believe. External production companies shoot all of the films and programming on the lots. If you want a job at Warner Bros., you would stand a much better chance with a law degree or an accounting degree than having anything to do with production.

If you want to work in film/TV production, you get a job with a Magnolia Pictures or an Original Productions, not with Warners, Fox, Disney, Sony or Paramount. If you want to be in the film business (marketing, accounting, law, management), then you work for the studios. At the risk of sounding ungrateful for the work the studios have given me, we have always looked at people with studio jobs with some pity, imagine "Office Space" with bigger egos, more money and a lot more insane people.

Dan
 
Jon Starr said:
Oh for...

I'm with doc on this one. Fine it's no pay, fine he mentioned maybe deferral, fine it's a lot of work. But he's not asking for a professional. He said students looking for credit and experience. He's being honest.

As for Perone saying "I'd rather work for warner bros" well you go do that. I live nowhere near warner bros, I don't want to be getting people coffee with a promise of moving up as an excuse just to keep me around. If I want experience as an editor I'll take crappy editing jobs like this. It may not be fun but it puts something on your reel. Who wants to hire an editor that has experience getting coffee?

We all need experience when starting, we all need something on our reel, and this is the type of thing students/graduates need. In fact I hardly see these posted and wish there were more. I know if they're willing to pay, there's no way I'll be getting the job without any experience. Sure some will be willing to pay me, but I'm sure there are many people with far more experience and more to show that will do it for the same price. The only paid editing gig I got because I was willing to work for almost nothing compared to the next guy.

Not to mention that I did get a job from working for free. I replied to something on craigslist, just PA's for some music video for no pay. So I went on, learned a lot, but then from there got pulled onto a paid gig on a feature, then a paid gig on a TV pilot, and loads and loads of contacts with the Montreal film community...
Click to expand...

There is a spot for unpaid work though on craigslist. The TV/Film/Video section is not it. 'Creative Gigs'.

I agree the guy was honest in his posting. And it was well laid out vs many of the other real scammers out there.
 
See what I think we should do is, answer with setting up the interviews and never show. Do it four or five times with different names and I'm sure they will get the point. Yea F***ing retards. It takes alot to get me mad, but seeing this just adds gasoline to my fire !!!
 
Loki said:
There is a spot for unpaid work though on craigslist. The TV/Film/Video section is not it. 'Creative Gigs'.
Click to expand...

I have experience with craigslist. I'm a student filmmaker often looking for student actors, and I post in the creative gigs section and still get flagged.

Also, from my experience, it looks like the craigslist post of this thread was also posted in the same place from the end tag (compensation comes at the end of the tag rather than at the beginning). Also, usually in creative gigs they let you check off 'no pay'.

So I still see no problem with this thread, aside form the possible large amount of work... depending on how much the person 'assists'
 
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