S-Log 2 side by side

G

Gene Sung

Veteran

Any of you guys see this S-Log 2 side by side from Den Lennie? I believe he's just recording internally as well. I do wish he did a S-Log 2 vs. Cinegamma 1 side by side though.

I think it looks really good. I'm always torn between Cinegamma 1 and Cinegamma 4. Cine 4 has a bit better highlights, but Cine 1 has much better shadow detail IMO. Aside from nice Highlights, I've never really like the look of Cine 4 as the blacks are always kind of crushed and the color looks a bit more artificial than Cinegamma 1.

But S-Log 2 seems to have better highlights than Cinegamma 4 and even more shadow detail than Cinegamma 1. Best of both worlds and the kind of profile I would love to have.

I wish I could download some un-treated S-Log 2 footage and do a grading test.

SWEET!!!!!!!
 
I hope someone comes up with an normal lab chart test because those real world tests are simply useless to see whats different now. I think Andy from abelcine will do a test in near future.
Increase in DR would be nice but 8bit then is kindly hard to push. In my opinion its a little senseless to give slog2 to the fs700. When u r going for the upgrade, slog2 is obsolete because then u r capturing raw and cant ouput directly slog2 for external recording in 10/12bit ... it always stays 8bit. Maybe its useful for exposing the image to see what ur gonna get in raw in terms of DR. But well, we will see.
 
@Skyline.

IMHO, you need both types of tests. Lab charts are great for a scientific breakdown, but totally useless in conveying aesthetics.

I actually think Den did a good job. You can really see the difference with the split screens.

Freiheit shot some really nice stuff with S-Log 2. Might not be able to push it really hard with a grade, but if it holds up to moderate grading and the DR looks as nice as it does, I think it's a big improvement over what we have now.



Like I said, Cine 4's shadow detail is mediocre at best and while Cine 1 has very nice shadow detail, the highlights could use some work. S-Log 2 seems to bridge the two; or so I hope.
 
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I'm not sure I understood what the point of the test by Den was for...SLOG requires grading as far as I know. (Unless you like your video washed out...)
Whats the point of putting ungraded slog on youtube or vimeo? Tells you almost nothing. Help me understand.
 
If u compare two different Gamma Curves u have to look at scopes. Ya u can compare 709 with slog2 with 709lut applied and maybe see a little difference in highlight handling or dr. But thats not the point at all. When u upload the video to the internet , youtube vimeo whatsoever its totally useless. U have to see the scopes to see whats different.
There are 2 Cameras not framing the same picture, maybe different lenses, maybe different whatsoever. The only comparison to gamma curves can be justified by lab charts and scopes. And because of its results you will KNOW whats different in the real world.
 
Chris Johnston said:
I'm not sure I understood what the point of the test by Den was for...SLOG requires grading as far as I know. (Unless you like your video washed out...)
Whats the point of putting ungraded slog on youtube or vimeo? Tells you almost nothing. Help me understand.
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IMHO opinion, I actually don't see the point of putting Graded S-Log as a test. Once footage is graded, you have no idea what the DR is.

From Den's test, At least to my eye, I can see easily see more detail in the S-Log in both shadows and highlights. For the way I grade at least, I prefer the S-log 2. For the look I personally like, I tend to keep it flat-ish and not high contrast so I love the way the S-Log 2 looks. But others might like a more high contrast / saturated look, then a different profile would probably be better.

I was just commenting on the look I personally prefer and from Den's and Freheit's test, I like what I see. But yeah, there are many others who probably don't like that look.
 
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gene_can_sing said:
@Skyline.


Freiheit shot some really nice stuff with S-Log 2. Might not be able to push it really hard with a grade, but if it holds up to moderate grading and the DR looks as nice as it does, I think it's a big improvement over what we have now.

.
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You'll NEVER be able to push S-log 8-bit, any more than Cinegamma 1 or 2.That's the nature of 8-bit. It's a poke in a pig's eye. The extreme head and tail compression of an s-log gamma capture solution will make matters even worse. So, s-log looks good right out of the can, but, try to add any spice and you'll find it's been watered down as far as it can go. Banding in the midrange, worse than ever, even tho' hilites may keep a subtle gradient...to the limit of 8-bit truncation anyway.Any kind of non-linear gamma curve in 8-bit, won't stand up to grading because of the data limitations. And you can't make something up that wasn't there to start with.

Perhaps, some smart post grading tool will develop an algorithm to smooth those ugly bands, if it can work in 10 or 12 bit. But, right out of the camera and grading 8-bit...not!
 
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gene_can_sing said:
IMHO opinion, I actually don't see the point of putting Graded S-Log as a test. Once footage is graded, you have no idea what the DR is.
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Exactly. but at least you can see what the footy is going to look like graded. (especially went compared to what PP4 or no PP etc, looks like) A better test IMO would have been to show the original SLOG and then a graded slog so you can see the diff between the 2 as compared to PP4 or which ever one...better yet, just making the original slog file available (as well as the same PP4 footy) for download That would let everyone know what the slog is capable of. (or not capable of)

gene_can_sing said:
From Den's test, At least to my eye, I can see easily see more detail in the S-Log in both shadows and highlights. For the way I grade at least, I prefer the S-log 2. For the look I personally like, I tend to keep it flat-ish and not high contrast so I love the way the S-Log 2 looks. But others might like a more high contrast / saturated look, then a different profile would probably be better.
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I would expect to see more details also. You're just jamming everything into the mids more. He (sort of) implies that the F5 and F55 have this, so the fs700 will also benefit from this also. I'm not sure thats realistic. (in an 8 bit world) I liken this much to the "technicolor" picture profile that canon came out with for dslrs. (if you're recording internally) PS, I'm not much of a techie, so if i've got this all wrong let me know..

Dan from CD says slog recorded externally will be 8 bit in a 10 bit wrapper???? I'm not sure if you'de get any benefit out of that either but may be wrong???
 
I've been lucky enough to test it out too, this is perhaps a more direct comparison especially if you've used a 5D which is what I was looking to compare it to for my own uses and because the DR of the 5D is well known, I'm purely looking at DR here. S-LOG2 surprised me, I was quite pessimistic about its use at 8 bit but it's actually pretty useful I think as long as you're not trying to grade skin tones at the extremes and it's probably most useful if you've got a high DR scene you don't have time/ability to light. My test model (and Den's) is the final version and I think they've gotten more DR out of it since Freiheit had it, I'd say it's now probably 13.5 stops. Also, if you didn't know, the starting ISO is now ISO2000 and goes up to a crazy ISO64,000, the noise/grain seems finer and it's now effectively 1-2 stops better in low light which I completely wasn't expecting, ISO 20,000 looks pretty awful on the current FS700 but looks pretty damn good with the new firmware. Anyway, here's the quick DR test I did:
https://vimeo.com/69415608
(not actually sure how to put the video up here!)
 
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Hey Toby, thanks for the test. The S-log is such an improvement over the current PPs. I was surprised by how much more DR it had than the 5D3 RAW. Excited for sure.
 
No problem guys, glad you found in helpful, I'm just grading some footage I shot yesterday with it (the camera just got collected), mostly low DR footage still shot on S-LOG and it holds up fine to grading, these are shots are on the beach with no people though. I'd say it's a brilliant and really 'film like' profile with crazy DR but if you're doing say a mid shot of an actress it's not the right thing to use unless it's more important to hold the highlights than have your skin tones right. For me the bigger news is the ISO bump, I was shooting 240fps at dusk at F2 (with an iscorama which probably loses a stop of light) at 1000th of a second and I still had to engage the ND filter wheel fully to ND1/64th. You've got two more stops of low light and that noise looks better, much less ugly, together with the Metabones Speed Booster the camera is now a monster in low light.
 
tobyloc said:
I've been lucky enough to test it out too, this is perhaps a more direct comparison especially if you've used a 5D which is what I was looking to compare it to for my own uses and because the DR of the 5D is well known, I'm purely looking at DR here. S-LOG2 surprised me, I was quite pessimistic about its use at 8 bit but it's actually pretty useful I think as long as you're not trying to grade skin tones at the extremes and it's probably most useful if you've got a high DR scene you don't have time/ability to light. My test model (and Den's) is the final version and I think they've gotten more DR out of it since Freiheit had it, I'd say it's now probably 13.5 stops. Also, if you didn't know, the starting ISO is now ISO2000 and goes up to a crazy ISO64,000, the noise/grain seems finer and it's now effectively 1-2 stops better in low light which I completely wasn't expecting, ISO 20,000 looks pretty awful on the current FS700 but looks pretty damn good with the new firmware. Anyway, here's the quick DR test I did:
https://vimeo.com/69415608
(not actually sure how to put the video up here!)
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that was great post!! thank you very much for your test, TobyLoc!!
 
Log curves are capture curves designed for grading, whether slog is a true log curve is also open to interpretation.

The point of a log curve is to spread the linear light in a way that mathematically compresses (not physically compress) light so that a broad range of light can be captured.

If you're shooting outdoors where there's a lot of highlight and range then slog will look good as is, but if you're shooting indoors or are looking at skin tones then invariably you're going to have to move those values around and grade it to something more pleasing. If you only have 256 steps in there, which now get more distributed in the highlights at the expense of the midtones (which the standard curves are orientated for) you may find that you loose subtlety in the skin. Sure, your out of focus backgrounds will look super cool, but your talent may not!

Don't forget that the only reason Slog is active, is a way to monitor highlights for RAW capture.

The fact that in some situations it can prove useful as an 8 bit capture method is a complete bonus, but i'm not sure it's a panacea for solving all FS700 issues. But it does add a valuable tool to us in some cases for some looks.

I think it's also important to add that slog isn't increasing dynamic range AFAIK. The maximum light value compared to the lowest value is a function of the sensor and that hasn't changed. What has is that either the cinegamma PPs are clipping the highlight early to add more 8 bit storage lower down, or it's rolling off so there's no detail in the highlights. What slog is doing is maintaining more of the highlight range so it's looking more natural, it can give the impression of more range but it's really recording 'more of the range'

hth
Paul
 
Re reading my post it sounds a bit harsh, i think if you take a look at the sample provided by tonyloc and see how much of the mid tones are pushed up into the highlights (compare the tree's). If you bring down the trees to the same kind of levels as the one to the left you stretch the highlight curve back down and i don't think there's enough luma detail in 8 bits to do that in the way that you should be able too.

If you like where the tree sits in terms of luma great, but if that was a persons face it might look a little washed out - so you'd grade it to the right place and then i think you'll see aspects of 8 bit slog fall apart.

If i look at the sony linear 4K raw files they have the same kind of response but a huge increase in luma detail which makes moving the exposure around a lot easier.

hth
Paul
 
Hi Paul, I think that's a good description, grading skin tones in 8 bit is never ideal, having those mid tones spread out further is going to make that tricky. Having used it shoot in a non test way yesterday and looking at the footage today I'd say for my own personal uses I will use SLOG a lot when I'm not in relatively controlled situations. When I can control the light I'd use one of the cinegammas and control the dynamic range of the scene myself to minimise the amount of grading I'd need to do to the skin tones in particular. I have been surprised how it's held together though, I think if you're still exposing a face relatively well around the middle of the curve you'll probably be able to get a good shot. I do wish it was 10 bit out though, that would make it so much more reliable.

Also, I should say I often desaturate my footage a little after grading and tend to keep my mid tones a little log-ish so this is suited well to me, others who prefer a punchier, more contrasty look may not find the log as exciting.
 
tobyloc said:
Hi Paul, I think that's a good description, grading skin tones in 8 bit is never ideal, having those mid tones spread out further is going to make that tricky. Having used it shoot in a non test way yesterday and looking at the footage today I'd say for my own personal uses I will use SLOG a lot when I'm not in relatively controlled situations. When I can control the light I'd use one of the cinegammas and control the dynamic range of the scene myself to minimise the amount of grading I'd need to do to the skin tones in particular. I have been surprised how it's held together though, I think if you're still exposing a face relatively well around the middle of the curve you'll probably be able to get a good shot. I do wish it was 10 bit out though, that would make it so much more reliable.

Also, I should say I often desaturate my footage a little after grading and tend to keep my mid tones a little log-ish so this is suited well to me, others who prefer a punchier, more contrasty look may not find the log as exciting.
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+1 to all of that.

The improved highlight edge handling alone is worth it in some cases.

I'm perhaps being a bit pedantic about claims of dynamic range and the one profile to rule them all. The one profile is RAW and that's it...!

thanks
Paul
 
This is a pretty hilarious read...:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
What is being said here, taking the permission to restate in different words, is this:

"I can't wait for the FS700 to get S-log. I know it won't grade well in 8-bit, but, that's OK 'cuz I'll just make corrections in post acquisition grading".
George Orwell is alive and well.

I don't think you were overly harsh, Paul. Some people don't want to accept that you can't fit 10 lbs of dog doo in a 5 lb bag. They seem to love the advertising hoopla(especially from Sony) then BMG when the real life performance doesn't meet their expectations.
 
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paulcurtis said:
+1 to all of that.

The improved highlight edge handling alone is worth it in some cases.

I'm perhaps being a bit pedantic about claims of dynamic range and the one profile to rule them all. The one profile is RAW and that's it...!

thanks
Paul
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Yeah raw is the way, or at least 10-12 bit log, Cineform raw is pretty spectacular at making those canon raw files 10% the size, play easily in Premiere and still keep their raw goodness. I figure I've got 5D3 raw for controlled situations, great colour, reasonable lattitude, anything else or slow motion I'd probably use FS700 slog2, if I can't control the lighting I've got to make a compromise somewhere. One thing I'm sure of playing with those files at their extremes - those 5Dmark3 H264 files are garbage.
 
tobyloc said:
Hi Paul, I think that's a good description, grading skin tones in 8 bit is never ideal, having those mid tones spread out further is going to make that tricky. Having used it shoot in a non test way yesterday and looking at the footage today I'd say for my own personal uses I will use SLOG a lot when I'm not in relatively controlled situations. When I can control the light I'd use one of the cinegammas and control the dynamic range of the scene myself to minimise the amount of grading I'd need to do to the skin tones in particular. I have been surprised how it's held together though, I think if you're still exposing a face relatively well around the middle of the curve you'll probably be able to get a good shot. I do wish it was 10 bit out though, that would make it so much more reliable.

Also, I should say I often desaturate my footage a little after grading and tend to keep my mid tones a little log-ish so this is suited well to me, others who prefer a punchier, more contrasty look may not find the log as exciting.
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Hey Toby,

With S-Log 2, can you tweak settings such as Black Levels, black gamma, Saturation, etc... like you can with the normal Cinegammas? Or is it just locked to it own settings? The reason why I ask is because maybe you can tweak a variation of S-Log to make it a little less flat and more suited for filming talent and what not? Seems like default S-Log 2 will be nice for certain situations with the added bonus of a great base to built other profiles from.

Anyways, I'm excited about S-Log. I know everyone complains about the 8-bit and God knows I would kill for 10 bit, but this is all we are given (unfortunately) and according to people who have actually tried it: Den, Toby and Freiheit; it seems to be another good profile.

I still don't see how a 10-bit 4:2:2 FS700 would have much sales effect the internal 10-bit 4:4:4 F5 and the much better 4K implantation. Sucks that Sony cripples us so badly, but at least the S-Log 2 seems pretty cool.
 
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