S-CINETONE Booster LUTs for FX6, FX9, etc.

AmbiSonde said:
What did you not understand?
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I fancy my knowledge but struggle with this..

You are much better off using DCTs or your grading environment's equivalent. Power grades and DCTs are 32 bit floating point, GPU accelerated, mathematically accurate transforms,

Im not saying you are wrong.. im just saying Im not fully across it. I don understand what a DCT is.

But then I dont really care because I can grade with 3 curves and a lassoo tool.

What I do know is that one must work the file to get inside the DR before the LUT or you get unplanned hard clipping.

I also know that you are describing the notion (a widely held notion - not your notion) that to fit 15 stops into a 10 stop box you must have a flat curve. I agree that is a wide and annoying preconception. Proved horrifically wrong by AA whose images were full of contrast even on boring old paper. Becuase he dodged and burned.
I dodge and burn.
 
morgan_moore said:
I fancy my knowledge but struggle with this..

You are much better off using DCTs or your grading environment's equivalent. Power grades and DCTs are 32 bit floating point, GPU accelerated, mathematically accurate transforms,

Im not saying you are wrong.. im just saying Im not fully across it. I don understand what a DCT is.

But then I dont really care because I can grade with 3 curves and a lassoo tool.

What I do know is that one must work the file to get inside the DR before the LUT or you get unplanned hard clipping.

I also know that you are describing the notion (a widely held notion - not your notion) that to fit 15 stops into a 10 stop box you must have a flat curve. I agree that is a wide and annoying preconception. Proved horrifically wrong by AA whose images were full of contrast even on boring old paper. Becuase he dodged and burned.
I dodge and burn.
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Sorry I may have confused you by using DCT (Davinci Color Transform) in my head I use this term interchangeably with CST (Color Space Transform). DCTL is the colour space language Resolve uses behind the scenes for creating colour transforms. CSTs are colour transforms for converting between working colour spaces and they are 32 bit, gpu accelerated yada yada yada...

Again, sorry. I'm sure you're across CSTs. If you set up Resolve to auto manage your colour management in the background it is applying CSTs to convert your footage to the working Timeline Colour space and then from that to the Output Colour space. You can of course defeat Resolve's assistance and do all you colour management in the node space with CST sandwiches if you wish. I setup Resolve to auto manage colour management but this is just a preference there is no best way and it can be defeated at any time.

You don't get hard clipping if you setup Resolve correctly. Grading under the LUT and grading within the camera space was a perfectly valid workflow a while ago, well, it still is but there is a much better way of working with Resolve now. I'll drop you a DM if that's OK as it's way off topic here. I thought this was a different thread.

I dodge and burn to but I call it using the HDR panel zones in Resolve.
 
ahalpert said:
Out of curiosity, can these be burned in in-camera?n
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I was thinking about your question last night. Why couldn't I feed S-CINETONE to my Blackmagic Video Assist recorder -- load my S-CINETONE LUTs into the recorder -- and then burn the LUT into the footage? I've never used my BM recorder wtth LUTs so I'm not sure if that is possible, but I'll play with it when I have time. However, even if it works, it wouldn't be ideal because that would take away a lot of the flexibility I have in post to choose one LUT over the other, and to further customize it.
 
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Lots of nonsense being thrown around on this thread by people with zero credibility. I won't waste my time addressing it all.

As for using Resolve. The whole point of my LUTs is to avoid going through Resolve at all and having a LUT (could be called a Universal Preset if that terminology sounds better) in Premiere, FCP, Avid, etc. that can just be dropped on the footage to make S-CINETONE look better as a quasi WYSWYG look for cameras (like the FX6 and Alphas) that don't have adequate paint menus. That's it. That is a big help to clients and people with zero color grading skills.
You either understand it or you don't. Makes no difference to me.
 
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markfpv said:
Hmmm... making sure I understand you correctly, Doug, as this surprises me. On the A1, instead of shooting Slog3, you prefer to use camera default setting or no picture profile?
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Sorry Dave, I saw this yesterday and then got sidetracked and forgot toreply.
Yes, you have it right. The only shooting mode I use on my A1 is PP off and DRO off. It does require grading in Resolve, but I find it a far better starting point than LOG or S-CINETONE.

BTW, the A1 has better image quality, but the FX6 is a much better camera on nearly every comparison, so that is why I use it. Once you reach a certain threshold, minor differences in image quality are not as important as just getting the shot.
 
Bassman2003 said:
I do not like the color of S-Cinetone. So that takes it out of the running to begin with for me.
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You don't have to use the S-Cinetone gamut, change it to ITU709-Matrix or one of the other options and immediately enjoy the benefits of a superb gamma curve with 709 colours.
 
Thanks. I realized I have not paid much attention to this since I set up my A7sIII. The color is separate. I made another PP to compare to what I am currently using as my SOOC settings which use CIne2 and Movie for color. Cine2 does not look very far away from S-Cinetone so they might be pretty close. Will test them out.
 
morgan_moore said:
This has long been a subject of thought to me.

Basically that Slog3 might be 'too flat' and need an amount of grading that degrades quality.
You are trading that off against..
-the exposure need to be less accurate
-the scene needs its DR cotrolled less
-10bit aquisition allows plenty of gradations vs an 8 bit delivery
-nicer cameras/codes (sony raw SR444) certainly has a big enough bucket to contain Slog3.

As an FS7 user I beleived Slog2 to be the better compromise.

There is certainly a legit thought that using S cinetone as an aquisition format has value.

Having a one stop LUT from S cinetone to 709 has value

One thing that I disagee with is folk not using Slog because they cannot be bothered/understand a LUT and then using a different format that needs a LUT anyway!
It is as easy to apply a 'big lut' as a 'little lut'
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I use 8 bit 422 1080p mpeg2 50 30p on F5 for news and events, s log3, in resolve, I apply the lut of s log 3 to rec 709a, the footage seems ok. But no more actions like sharpening or color boost or denoise. More actions will show artifacts very quickly. Actually to my eyes, the lut is very good, the results are very usable. The color may be a little dull though.
 
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morgan_moore said:
One thing that I disagee with is folk not using Slog because they cannot be bothered/understand a LUT and then using a different format that needs a LUT anyway. It is as easy to apply a 'big lut' as a 'little lut'
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I used to feel the same way, but there are exceptions.

First of all, I have never found a LUT that I could just drop on S-LOG3 footage and mostly walk away. For me. S-LOG3 always requires too much secondary grading to look good. And to make matters worse, every individual clip needs it's own attention. I can't just grade one clip and apply that grade to similar clips and expect them all to look good. Too much effort. And if you're handing off the footage to an inexperience client, giving them S-LOG is like giving a child a handgun.

On the other hand, if I shoot with S-CINETONE on the FX6 (not talking about other cameras) then the footage is already good enough some people might (and do) accept it as "finished". But my booster LUTs will give it a push towards (what I think is) a better-looking final image with virtually no other effort, regardless of the NLE or workflow someone is using. A knowledge of Resolve is not necessary. Just drop the LUT on a clip in your NLE. That is a huge time-saver and helps ensure a more consistent look from clip to clip. I would also say that the result is almost always better to my eyes than if I'd shot with S-LOG3 in the first place.

If someone has a S-LOG3 LUT that can do the same thing, I'd love to see it.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I was thinking about your question last night. Why couldn't I feed S-CINETONE to my Blackmagic Video Assist recorder -- load my S-CINETONE LUTs into the recorder -- and then burn the LUT into the footage? I've never used my BM recorder wtth LUTs so I'm not sure if that is possible, but I'll play with it when I have time. However, even if it works, it wouldn't be ideal because that would take away a lot of the flexibility I have in post to choose one LUT over the other, and to further customize it.
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Yes, I think with an external recorder it should be easy to burn the LUT onto S-CINETONE footage. I agree with you about the benefits of having an easy-to-grade camera file rather than one you don't plan to grade at all. But someone -- maybe Chris Young? -- mentioned having clients who don't want to deal with LUTs. So, you could hand them files with the S-CINETONE booster LUT already applied. Or certainly, if someone is doing a livestream then that approach could be beneficial. If you had to burn the LUT in in-camera, maybe you could export a double-decker LUT that combines an S-LOG3->S-CINETONE LUT as some people have made with your S-CINETONE booster LUT. Not an ideal solution by any stretch of the imagination... Just a thought.

Personally, I'm happy with my slightly-crushed S-LOG2 with saturated color profile for easy grading. I passed on upgrading my FX3 firmware because I think they took away S-LOG2 and I rely on it so often. I fear that future camera releases may leave it out altogether. (I think they've also changed the wifi control app/protocols and I'm not sure if the new firmware will work with my Monitor+ app, which is a real gem that I can't live without.)
 
Having an 'its OK' but can take a grade (s cine tone) has value.
Burning S cinetone+booster has value
Shooting full log has value.

Its all about delivering to the client.

But the more 'ready to roll look' (usually narrow DR high saturation) the more Ill want flags and/or powerful lights on set to control the scene. Or to avoid midday.

Its the rare client that understands the trade off.

Given a black tent to monitor in, $5g monitors and a full lights truck with time and five sparks I be happy to shoot ready to broadcast.
 
Okay, some screenshots to share. I grabbed some very quick footage of my usual test subjects and then applied Doug's LUTs. I'm attaching here the original S-Cinetone footage, Doug's HC LUT, and Doug's LC LUT. No other modifications were done. I don't think I need to label things as it should be pretty clear which is which, but the order for the two shots is NO LUT, HC, LC.

The LC is still a bit too saturated for my usual tastes, but I find that it generally works really well with these shots. The HC, in this scenario, pushes the contrast a bit too far (for my tastes).

EDIT: to be honest, the more I look at this the more I think the LC has just the right amount of saturation. It's intense but pleasing.

Click image for larger version Name: NO LUT_1.8.1.jpg Views: 0 Size: 84.1 KB ID: 5704760 Click image for larger version Name: LUT HC_1.8.2.jpg Views: 0 Size: 97.3 KB ID: 5704765 Click image for larger version Name: LUT HC_1.8.2.jpg Views: 0 Size: 97.3 KB ID: 5704765 Click image for larger version Name: LUT HC_1.8.2.jpg Views: 0 Size: 97.3 KB ID: 5704765 Click image for larger version Name: LUT HC_1.8.2.jpg Views: 0 Size: 97.3 KB ID: 5704765 Click image for larger version Name: LUT HC_1.8.2.jpg Views: 0 Size: 97.3 KB ID: 5704765
 
Thanks for posting. it is interesting to see the LUTs in action on other people's footage.
I definitely like the LC clips best.

I shot a bike race time trial today (500' hill climb) just for the fun of it in a downtown urban environment with S-CINETONE. Barely a cloud in the sky so it was super contrasty with deep shadows and bright colors. It will be interesting to see how the LUTs hold up on some really uncontrolled footage whenever I find time to do something with it. :-( I don't really enjoy editing highlights videos, I wish I had partner who was a killer editor at that sort of thing.
 
I assume these were shot with S-Cinetone for the Gamma and Color Mode? Why not use S-Cinetone for the just the Gamma and change the color mode to something like "Movie"? This coming from the non-cinema Sony cameras, so maybe it is different on the FX6...
 
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