RX10: Grand Canyon Winter

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dan.carter

Well-known member
If moire, aliasing & mud are to be issues, the Grand Canyon will provide the cause. The Sony RX10 found none.

This location is often where my cameras become keepers or failures. The RX10 was a big success and is a keeper. This camera offers better than the best of camcorders and DSLRs I've owned, and then some.

Zoom speed has been considered an issue, but was a joy to use with the zoom lever and focus ring. I'd be even happier with a slower zoom.

ISO3200 Low-light shots, IMO, were as useable as those from my GH3 despite the AVCHD codec.

Clear Image Zoom allowed getting California Conor shots I'd have missed badly with my usual Lumix lenses. And at no apparent loss of quality.

At -6 degrees my favorite lightweight Benro S2 fluid-like head became a brick, but the camera was unfazed. The Manfrotto 560B monopod fluid coupling works at any temp.

RX10 buttons are easier to operate with gloves than GH3. Some GH3 buttons are difficult gloveless.


Winter 2013 at Grand Canyon South Rim. View from the rim, landmark architecture, and route to Plateau Point via Bright Angel Trail. Also had a close visit with a California Condor at Plateau Point.

Sony DSC-RX10
1080/60p
Exterior settings: Vivid, +2 Sharpening, -0.3/0.7 Exposure, Auto WB
Interior settings: Standard, +2 Sharpening, 0.0 Exposure, Auto WB
Manfrotto 560B Fluid Monopod
Gitzo GT0531 Tripod
Benro S2 Fluid-like Head
Polarizer
 
Looks good Dan. Regardless of whether the camera is better than this or that, I just find the RX10 a nice little package capable of producing great images that speak for themselves. Just another tool used to record scenes. The one difference I'm finding with the RX10 is that the camera packs most of what you need into a small form factor and is a fun little camera to use.
 
dustylense said:
Looks good Dan. Regardless of whether the camera is better than this or that, I just find the RX10 a nice little package capable of producing great images that speak for themselves. Just another tool used to record scenes. The one difference I'm finding with the RX10 is that the camera packs most of what you need into a small form factor and is a fun little camera to use.
Click to expand...

Many thanks Christopher. Agreed, capable package for sure.

Purchasing the Sony RX100II this summer led me to the RX10. Many of the RX10 features, an f1.8 lens, and easily fits the pocket.
 
Hey Dan:

Very nice footage.

Question somewhat related to the camera.

Do you use your Gitzo with the Benzo fluid head for stabilized shots?

Is that combination heavy enough for the RX10?
 
Nice Dan, and one of my favorite neighborhoods.
I know most of those locations well, did a Rim to RIm not long ago and celebrated at the El Tovar.

Here's what jumped out at me with the moving images of the Canyon - what didn't jump out to me.
That is about as clean an image of detailed landscapes as I've seen...I'd love to compare that to a C300 shooting the same.
Again, I was totally struck by the photographic nature of the distant backgrounds with camera movement.

Perhaps Sony really did what Canon did with the C100 - provide a truly robust AVCHD codec.
This was supposed to be a codec that falls apart with movement and detailed BGs.
One thing is clear to me, all of the original testers that posted findings and reviews with this camera had little idea of what they were doing and what this camera is capable of.
I've got one mission with the RX10 and after last nights tests, I'm believing in it - for the first time in years, get the look I want in camera and leave little in post.

I'm doing skin tones, close ups tonight with it and the BMPCC, but as of now the 24-200mm shot at 35, 70 and 135, compared to my best primes equaled or beat them and they were stopped down a full stop in each instance to match the RX wide open.
Again with the 3 primes stopped down, the RX wide open matched or bettered the resolution at each focal length.

Here's the other thing - as I was dropping the clips into the timeline, for each setup I found myself trying to match the BMC to the RX10's image out of the camera.
I showed the 5 comparisons to my partner today (very experienced CD) and she picked the RX in every scene and was sure when she was done that she had "of course chosen the BM images."

This is really quite something for me.
 
David Saraceno said:
Hey Dan:

Very nice footage.

Question somewhat related to the camera.

Do you use your Gitzo with the Benzo fluid head for stabilized shots?

Is that combination heavy enough for the RX10?
Click to expand...

David,

This Gitzo GT0531 and Benro S2 setup is 2.5lb of joy for the GH3 or RX10. It is not a leveling tripod, but is favored over my Gitzo GT2531LVL for its light weight and size. Near the Bright Angel sign of the Canyon video, winds were 40mph. Hung my daypack from the center column and no shake. The Benro S2 head is great in warm weather for slow pans/tilts as it is very stiff, but weighs only 12oz. In the Canyon cold, the grease which makes the S2 fluid-like made pans impossible and tilts nearly so.

Many thanks for the good words.
 
jimagine said:
Nice Dan, and one of my favorite neighborhoods.
I know most of those locations well, did a Rim to RIm not long ago and celebrated at the El Tovar.

Here's what jumped out at me with the moving images of the Canyon - what didn't jump out to me.
That is about as clean an image of detailed landscapes as I've seen...I'd love to compare that to a C300 shooting the same.
Again, I was totally struck by the photographic nature of the distant backgrounds with camera movement.

Perhaps Sony really did what Canon did with the C100 - provide a truly robust AVCHD codec.
This was supposed to be a codec that falls apart with movement and detailed BGs.
One thing is clear to me, all of the original testers that posted findings and reviews with this camera had little idea of what they were doing and what this camera is capable of.
I've got one mission with the RX10 and after last nights tests, I'm believing in it - for the first time in years, get the look I want in camera and leave little in post.

I'm doing skin tones, close ups tonight with it and the BMPCC, but as of now the 24-200mm shot at 35, 70 and 135, compared to my best primes equaled or beat them and they were stopped down a full stop in each instance to match the RX wide open.
Again with the 3 primes stopped down, the RX wide open matched or bettered the resolution at each focal length.

Here's the other thing - as I was dropping the clips into the timeline, for each setup I found myself trying to match the BMC to the RX10's image out of the camera.
I showed the 5 comparisons to my partner today (very experienced CD) and she picked the RX in every scene and was sure when she was done that she had "of course chosen the BM images."

This is really quite something for me.
Click to expand...

Good to hear from you jimagine. I find myself at Grand Canyon 5 or 6 times per year, especially in Winter. Can't get enough of the place. Living in Phoenix helps.

Starting with the Sony RX100II this summer, I found Sony cameras seem to work like I want to shoot. And the RX10 continues to deliver.

I'm looking forward to your "get the look I want in camera and leave little in post" experiences, as that is my goal as well. The GH3 and RX10, IMO, are great for this.

Good shooting.
 
dan.carter said:
Good to hear from you jimagine. I find myself at Grand Canyon 5 or 6 times per year, especially in Winter. Can't get enough of the place. Living in Phoenix helps.

Starting with the Sony RX100II this summer, I found Sony cameras seem to work like I want to shoot. And the RX10 continues to deliver.

I'm looking forward to your "get the look I want in camera and leave little in post" experiences, as that is my goal as well. The GH3 and RX10, IMO, are great for this.

Good shooting.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree with you more Dan. With RAW video being the rage in some corners these days, I'm exceedingly happy to get this kind of quality right out-of-the-box with the RX10. Almost every graded and CC'd RAW video I've seen, looks to have somewhat offbeat colors and things that just don't look quite right.
 
jimagine said:
This was supposed to be a codec that falls apart with movement and detailed BGs.
One thing is clear to me, all of the original testers that posted findings and reviews with this camera had little idea of what they were doing and what this camera is capable of.
Click to expand...

Been thinking about this, and wondering if you're basically correct. Can even the most capable videographer spend a few hours with a new camera and judge it fairly? I truly don't see how.

The GH3 suffered months of moire rumors because early testers didn't bother trying any codec other than All-I. All-I had terrible moire & aliasing, while AVCHD & IBP had none. Today, the GH3 is celebrated for its lack of these issues.

Now, Andrew Reid, who I believe is very capable, shoots a dark area of a backlit spinning carousel and declares the RX10 has "aliasing problems" and "video processing is quite poor".

Puzzling we've now spent weeks with the RX10 and are not experiencing these issues, but instead are finding the camera's hidden talents.
 
So true Dan. I've spent quite a bit of time shooting things that would typically make aliasing & moire rear its ugly head. I shot the same things that used to drive my NEX7, NEX6 & NEX VG30 nuts with moire & aliasing.

I just don't see anything like it on the RX10, I really don't. The very few times I've seen it to any degree, it's been so minor as to be a non-issue.

Here's the other thing that drives me nuts. A reviewer will conduct a very rapid pan, with finely detailed objects in the frame, and then declare the RX10's codec a 'fail' when the detail is blurred. Who pans that quickly? Doing so will typically sicken your audience. A normal pan holds the detail quite well, thank you. Would a 50mpbs .mov file do better? Sure, but this is doing the job just fine IMO. :)
 
Regarding Moire on the GH3 Dan, it really isn't celebrated for it's lack thereof.
It can display very strong moire with certain clothing patterns at 50mbps where most pros shoot it.
I used one on a just this week, finished educational film and there was horrible moire on several shots of the young host's shirt.
 
jimagine said:
Regarding Moire on the GH3 Dan, it really isn't celebrated for it's lack thereof.
It can display very strong moire with certain clothing patterns at 50mbps where most pros shoot it.
I used one on a just this week, finished educational film and there was horrible moire on several shots of the young host's shirt.
Click to expand...

Interesting. For two years I shot 1080/30p 50Mbps IBP (MOV). No clothing patterns to speak of, but architectural and machine patterns of all kinds. Not the first hint of moire. All-I though is totally unusable. Unpredictable for some I suppose.
 
I came across lots of moire using the Gh3. Not Canon nasty but it was there. Sometimes on the Gh3 it was pretty harsh though. Lots of highlight aliasing too. On the RX10 I haven't run into super moire as of yet, but I'm sure there are patterns out there that will bite the camera here and there.

I'll say this. If you are pleased with the image out of the Gh3, you will be happy with the RX10. Very similar feel to the cameras. However, I "feel" the RX10 resolves finer detail than the Gh3. THen, the ability to externally record with the RX10 and the ability to attach an XLR module just puts the RX10 ahead of the Gh3, too me that is.
 
I read the focus is a "fly by wire" type. Are manual focus pulls repeatable on the RX10 for dramatic work? If yes, this might be a great camera for low budget web series run and gun type of work.
 
dustylense said:
I came across lots of moire using the Gh3. Not Canon nasty but it was there. Sometimes on the Gh3 it was pretty harsh though. Lots of highlight aliasing too. On the RX10 I haven't run into super moire as of yet, but I'm sure there are patterns out there that will bite the camera here and there.

I'll say this. If you are pleased with the image out of the Gh3, you will be happy with the RX10. Very similar feel to the cameras. However, I "feel" the RX10 resolves finer detail than the Gh3. THen, the ability to externally record with the RX10 and the ability to attach an XLR module just puts the RX10 ahead of the Gh3, too me that is.
Click to expand...

I could not find any moire on the RX10 that jumped out at me. I had a Canon T2i and the moire made shots unusable. I have used the GH2 since it came out and have liked the results I get. The RX10 is a good bridge between the HVX type of shooting I have done and the DSLR video I have done. I make sure all my cameras are black. My wife has no idea how many cameras I have….the RX10 looks close to the GH2. She saw my BMCC and asked what that box did….LOL
 
dustylense said:
I came across lots of moire using the Gh3. Not Canon nasty but it was there. Sometimes on the Gh3 it was pretty harsh though. Lots of highlight aliasing too. On the RX10 I haven't run into super moire as of yet, but I'm sure there are patterns out there that will bite the camera here and there.

I'll say this. If you are pleased with the image out of the Gh3, you will be happy with the RX10. Very similar feel to the cameras. However, I "feel" the RX10 resolves finer detail than the Gh3. THen, the ability to externally record with the RX10 and the ability to attach an XLR module just puts the RX10 ahead of the Gh3, too me that is.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I'm actually seeing more fine, unaliased, detail on wide and distant backgrounds on the RX10 so far.
It looks a bit more like C100 footage in that regard than the GH3.

And while we do a good bit of outdoor with those types of moves against landscapes and subjects, I'm really about people, actors, skin tones and in those situations complex BGs are almost always purposefully less focused.

So right now, again tonight I'm continuing simultaneous tests with skin, lighting and both the new RX and BM.
I'm going to shoot scenes tonight with the RX in all reasonable profiles for comparison, all medium close ups of a blonde, under a setup of 56k LED softlights and spots.
At the same time, I'm using these tests to find the sweet spot for exposure on the BM which I'm really liking but...it needs the right technique and I want to use both of these cameras in two upcoming TV spots during the holidays.
I really want to show (myself) that the RX can be shot to cut in narrative like that with the cinema camera.

Also, to the RX out snowshoeing yesterday. 10 degrees F, worked flawlessly and I actually, for the first time in my life, used AF (on my 7 Labs in constant motion) and it was amazing.
In truth, I would have happily paid a lot more than $1300 for just that feature and the Zeiss 2.8 on any other pro camera we've used.
 
Dan, I just realized the post I thought I made when you first put the GC piece up didn't get posted.
There were a few things that really grabbed me.

First the neighborhood. Some of my favorite memories are from those locations.
Did a Rim to Rim not long ago, after a few days in Bryce Canyon - celebrated at the El Tovar.

Second, those shots should be used by Sony as an example of how the AVCHD codec is anything but muddy with detailed backgrounds.
I don't know many cameras that could get that clean, photographic of a look in the distance.

Third, I didn't realize the condor was shot with the CIZ. OK, so that really works when you need it.

Fourth I now know what you look like from behind, and the shot of you walking from the base of Bright Angel toward the Colorado was the kind of quality image that could work at lot's of levels.
If I hadn't already gotten the camera, i would have after seeing that vid.
As far as outside work, this little thing is a gem and I mean compared to about any camera.
 
jimagine said:
Dan, I just realized the post I thought I made when you first put the GC piece up didn't get posted.
There were a few things that really grabbed me.

First the neighborhood. Some of my favorite memories are from those locations.
Did a Rim to Rim not long ago, after a few days in Bryce Canyon - celebrated at the El Tovar.

Second, those shots should be used by Sony as an example of how the AVCHD codec is anything but muddy with detailed backgrounds.
I don't know many cameras that could get that clean, photographic of a look in the distance.

Third, I didn't realize the condor was shot with the CIZ. OK, so that really works when you need it.

Fourth I now know what you look like from behind, and the shot of you walking from the base of Bright Angel toward the Colorado was the kind of quality image that could work at lot's of levels.
If I hadn't already gotten the camera, i would have after seeing that vid.
As far as outside work, this little thing is a gem and I mean compared to about any camera.
Click to expand...

Good to hear from you jimagine. Happy to hear you enjoyed the project.

I find myself at or in Grand Canyon 5 or 6 times per year, especially in Winter. Living in Phoenix helps. El Tovar is especially inviting during the Holidays, but their hot chocolate is a heart attack in a cup.

I was hooked this summer by the Sony RX100II, it fit my shooting style and continually surprised me. The RX10 continues to do so.

That was me in those shots, it was Alfred Hitchcock.

Looking forward to your "get the look I want in camera and leave little in post" experiences, as I'm a fan of the practice.

Good shooting.
 
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