Run'n'gun one-man basic sound setup (for gh3)

D

den59

Well-known member
Hi guys,

I would like to ask your advice about basic run'n'gun one man audio set up for indoors/outdoors usage.
i dont intend to earn money with it ATM, just small personal documentaries.
Therefore i would prefer to keep the total budget (mic/preamp) around 500,
dont want to buy very cheap stuff either.
Right now i am concerned about shotgun and preamp, lavs and accessories like wind shield can always be bought later.

so far, i was looking at
Rode NTG1/2 or AT875R
+
Juiced Link RM222 or Beachtek DXA-SLR.
the latter is somehow more expensive in Europe (as high as 500€!), so
so i leaning towards RM cos i can find it for around 315€ new.

any other reasonably priced alternatives?
i can squize in Sennheiser me66/k6p (second hand),
which is probably a better option.

ps. In another threads i saw people recommending Sound devices mix-pre (second hand),
i dont know how easy can it be mouned and used with dslr. I would prefer to stay low profile, use minimum rig.
both beachtek and jucedlink can be mouned under my GH3, which looks good to me.
I dont see Sound Devices mix-pre neither at ebay nor in stores here in Europe, no idea how much does it cost, but very likely above my budget.
pps. I dont need to monitor levels/headphone jack on preamp since i use gh3.
 
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Save your money and get the Rode Vidoemic Pro - works very well on the GH3 - plugs straight in. Fairly good audio control with GH3. Same quality as NTG2 if not better. Great run and gun set up. For interviews you need off-camera mic and I record to a Tascam 100 with XLR's with variety of mics. You can pop the Tascam into your pockets or jacket. Rode mic plus Tascam comes in about $500. Get a 2nd mic later.
 
For prices on a mixpre in europe, search for it on thomann. It's a good mixer for the price, but over your budget unless you come across a good deal on a used one. It's quite small and has options for mounting it under a camera (maybe that's an accessory though).
 
Yes, the Rode Vidoe Mic Pro is a good match for the GH3. ( set your audio level on your GH3 to 1, then set your Rode Video Mic Pro to the +20 dB setting )

Alternatively the new Sennheiser MKE600 ( about $400 ) is a nice upgrade from the RODE NTG-2 shotgun mic, and it is less sensitive to off-axis noise, so it works better indoors.

For wind protection, the Rycote Softie kit works well both indoors and outdoors, and is significantly lighter than a full size blimp. The blimp is better for strong winds, but otherwise the Softie does a good job.

Rycote Softie Kit with Lyre Mount and Pistol Grip Handle : $229

For lav mics, I would recommend the Olympus LS-7 recorder ( about $130 ) which is a tiny recorder that can be clipped to a belt, tucked into a pocket, or hidden in a dress. This recorder will power the lav mic and run for 30 hours on 2 AAA batteries.

For a good quality low-cost lav mic the Oscar SoundTech lavs are quite good. I bought one of their OST-801 lav mics ( essentially a clone of the TRAM TR-50 lav ) a couple of weeks ago, and so far I've been very happy with it. The OST-801 costs about $85 + shipping, though you will probably want the accessories for it too. ( ask for a price list from the Oscar SoundTech contact page : Oscar SoundTech Contact Page )

Alternatively, you could invest in a Sennheiser G3 lav system ( about $600 ) which can go directly into your GH3. ( set the transmitter to -18 dB and receiver to 0 dB, and your GH3 to audio level 1 ) This eliminates the need to use an external recorder.

With both of these setups ( Olympus LS-7 or Sennheiser G3 ) your subject is free to wander around unconstrained by cables.
 
Thanks everyone for advices.

@emptymind
if i'm one-man crew i'd have to put Tascam in the talent pocket to record from lav, i guess.
otherwise, if i keep it my pocket, i see no benefits as compared to preamps like Juicedlink/Beachteck, and
they are in the same price niche (around 200-300). Maybe i miss something.


@Jema
thanks for a link, i checked him and there's only mixpre-d, which is about 1000 Euro :) waaaay above my budget :)

@TheDingo
A weird thing is that Video Mic Pro goes second-hand about 140 Euro, the cheapest new one costs 180Euro.
For the same 180 I can buy new NTG2, or if i add some 50 Euros i can possibly find ME66/P6 second hand.
For the total combo (preamp/mic) i can keep it around 500.

Frankly, i'm skeptical about videomic, i used to have the older one (not pro) on my Canon HV20.
At some point during a very important monolog the talent went further from me and i had to increase the
mic sensitivity. As a result i got some "clicks" recorded since i had to do it through menu and use a joystick.
That's partly why i was looking at preamps so it's more convenient to control levels in a one-man crew.
Tascam DR100 have relatively good controls of levels (i read in reviews), but again it's pain to mount on the rig.
Gh3 has option to control levels, but that is digital gain, as far as i understood, and so the signal-to-noise ratio will drop
significantly, not to mention that it is currently awkward to control it - touch screen only.

The lav recorder and mic's you recommended look very good for the price. Although i'm not so concerned about lavs at the moment,
i though to buy Sennheiser g3 in some 2-3 months and plug it into preamp.

Bottom line, don't you think it is more future-proof and convenient in one-man crew to actually have preamps with phantom power?
Personally i don't have much experience, but that's why i'm asking for advice here.

Not sure, how convenient is it to monitor levels via GH3 (especially if there are two different sources, lav and shotgun), maybe i should rather control them using preamp's facilities...
 
den59 said:
A weird thing is that Video Mic Pro goes second-hand about 140 Euro, the cheapest new one costs 180Euro. For the same 180 I can buy new NTG2, or if i add some 50 Euros i can possibly find ME66/P6 second hand.
For the total combo (preamp/mic) i can keep it around 500.
Click to expand...

One big difference with the RODE Video Mic Pro versus the NTG2 mic is that the Video Mic Pro can be set to output a very "hot" +20 dB MIC level signal that works really well with the GH3 audio circuitry. To do the same with a NTG-2 mic you have to add on a pre-amp like the JuicedLink model. So the comparsion becomes...

RODE Video Mic Pro <---> RODE NTG-2 + JuicedLink Pre-amp

Personally I would forget about the Sennheiser ME66/P6 shotgun because it's a very "tinny" sounding mic. ( it has next to no lower range at all )

Given the choice, I would choose a RODE Video Mic Pro before I would go anywhere near the Sennheiser ME66/P6 shotgun.

The Sennheiser MKE600 is lower cost and in my opinion a much better sounding shotgun mic than the ME66/P6.

den59 said:
Frankly, i'm skeptical about videomic, i used to have the older one (not pro) on my Canon HV20
Click to expand...

The newer RODE Video Mic Pro is significantly better, but is not great indoors like most low cost shotgun mics. ( they pick-up way too much reflected sound compared to a good hyper-cardioid mic when used indoors )

den59 said:
At some point during a very important monolog the talent went further from me and i had to increase the mic sensitivity. As a result i got some "clicks" recorded since i had to do it through menu and use a joystick.
Click to expand...

I would recommend boosting the audio levels in post if you don't have a solution that can be operated quietly while you are shooting. Because the GH3 has a fairly low noise-floor ( -66 dB RMS ), you can get away with a small amount of volume boost in post ( say +10 dB ) and still end up with good sounding audio.

den59 said:
That's partly why i was looking at preamps so it's more convenient to control levels in a one-man crew.
Click to expand...

For my work ( corporate and educational training videos ) I shoot many interviews by myself, and generally use one of three audio options...

1- A hidden lav mic on the subject that is connected to an Olympus LS-7 recorder that is clipped to their belt, or tucked into their pocket, or hidden in their dress. I also use a Sennheiser G3 UHF wireless system that connects directly to my GH3 camera, so no recorder is required at all. Both solutions work well for this.

2- A hypercardioid mic ( AT4053b ) or a cardioid mic ( AT3031 ) on a boom stand that is positioned just out of frame from where my subject is sitting. The mic is plugged directly into a Tascam DR-40 recorder ( I also have a DR-100, but the DR-40 works well for this type of work ) that supplies phantom power to the mic.

3- An Olympus LS-12 recorder that I position just out of frame. ( usally on a table in front of the person I am interviewing ) I could use the Tascam DR-40 the same way, but the Olympus is about half the size of the DR-40, so it's easier to position out of the frame.

Of these three methods, my favorite for audio quality is number 2, the hypercardiod mic, but the lav mic is a close second. ( number 3, the recorder on the table can work really well if the person doesn't fidget with their hands on the table )

den59 said:
Tascam DR100 have relatively good controls of levels (i read in reviews), but again it's pain to mount on the rig.
Click to expand...

Yes the Tascam DR-100 is very good ( I own one of those too, I teach video production in my spare time, so I like to present a lot of gear options when I demo in class ), but I would never want to ride audio levels on this recorder while I am shooting, it would be a nightmare. ( I prefer mixers or to adjust audio levels in post )

den59 said:
Gh3 has option to control levels, but that is digital gain, as far as i understood, and so the signal-to-noise ratio will drop significantly, not to mention that it is currently awkward to control it - touch screen only.
Click to expand...

All audio gear is going to use electronic gain, so it doesn't make much difference here.

With the GH3 the audio level control is really an AGC-Boost control, so you really don't want to mess around with it. When set to level 1 the AGC boost is +3 dB, as you raise the level the AGC boost gets worse, where it maxes out at +20 dB at level 19. To get a high quality low-noise recording with the GH3, you want to set the audio level to 1 and feed the camera a strong -15 dB audio signal, which means using something like the RODE Video Mic Pro set to the +20 dB setting, or using a JuicedLink Mic pre-amp, or using a good mixer like one of the Sound Devices models, or lastly a good UHF mic system like the Sennheiser G3 which can be set to output audio at almost LINE level. All of these solutions work well with the GH3.

den59 said:
I plan to buy Sennheiser g3 in some 2-3 months and plug it into preamp
Click to expand...

You can plug the Sennheiser G3 receiver directly into the GH3, it works great like this.

den59 said:
Don't you think it is more future-proof and convenient in one-man crew to actually have preamps with phantom power?
Click to expand...

No I don't, because you will end up using many different audio solutions depending on what the shooting situation is. All that matters is good sound, so it really doesn't matter how you achieve this.

Using a good cardioid or hyper-cardioid directly into a Tascam DR-40 works really well with the right microphone. ( the Audio-Technica AT3031 or AT4053b mics both work great with the Tascam DR-40 ) The AT3031 mic has been discontinued, but you can find it used for about $100 if you are lucky. ( the replacement mic is the AT4021 which sells about $350 )

If you want to use one mic for everything, then the new Sennheiser MKE600 ( about $400 ) is a good shotgun mic that can be used both outdoors and indoors. If you want a better mic than this, then the RODE NTG-3 ( about $700+ ) is a nice step up, and it also works well outdoors and indoors.
 
den59 said:
I dont need to monitor levels/headphone jack on preamp since i use gh3.
Click to expand...

This is EXTREMELY foolish. You should ALWAYS monitor the audio. What if you have a damaged or broken cable? What if a battery dies? What if your gain is set too low or too high? How do you know without listening?
 
unclebob6958 said:
This is EXTREMELY foolish. You should ALWAYS monitor the audio. What if you have a damaged or broken cable? What if a battery dies? What if your gain is set too low or too high? How do you know without listening?
Click to expand...

Agreed - if you are only feeding to the GH3 and the GH3 has a decent headphone amp. and headphones socket you *may* get away with it.

But you *do* need to properly monitor the sound.

Otherwise it's like trying to film without looking in the viewfinder and pointing the camera in approximately the right direction - and I assume you would never do that.
 
John Willett said:
Agreed - if you are only feeding to the GH3 and the GH3 has a decent headphone amp. and headphones socket you *may* get away with it.
Click to expand...

I shot a few corporate training films with my GH3 set-up like this in January. It worked out quite well. ( Sennheiser G3 lav on presenter, shooting with 35-100mm f/2.8 zoom, monitoring audio via the GH3 headphone jack )
 
unclebob6958 said:
This is EXTREMELY foolish. You should ALWAYS monitor the audio. What if you have a damaged or broken cable? What if a battery dies? What if your gain is set too low or too high? How do you know without listening?
Click to expand...

probably you missed "on preamp"? What i mean, is that i monitor lvl's on gh3 directly (headphones+visually) rather than on preamp. Therefore i can use Juicedlink RM instead of RA.
 
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John Willett said:
Agreed - if you are only feeding to the GH3 and the GH3 has a decent headphone amp. and headphones socket you *may* get away with it.

But you *do* need to properly monitor the sound.
Click to expand...
GH3 has audio lvls out-of-the-box, so i can monitor both visually and in headphones.
 
although i have to say having just got the mix pre-d - the highly detailed audio levels and headphone clarity are a real treat - the gh3 and gh2 audio meter is always quite tricky to get an accurate level from. The juiced link meter levels are even worse. If you can stretch to the mix pre-d it is well worth it
 
Headphones

I don't get it, OP never said he was monitoring audio using only meters-- he's using the headphone output of the GH3. Perhaps everyone got stuck thinking about the GH2, which has no headphone output?

Very strange comments here.

Nonetheless, headphone output on a preamp is meaningless anyway. Unless you have headphone monitoring at the end of the audio chain (i.e. the actual recording device), you have a major blind spot. No amount of monitoring (headphone output or meters) higher up on the chain will help you with a point of failure lower down.

Headphone output on the GH3 is a perfectly acceptable way to monitor sound when you're running sound from a preamp into it.
 
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned (and if they have, sorry I missed it) is that currently, with the GH3, during recording everything disappears after 10 seconds. To get it to re-appear, you have to half-toggle the shutter button. This is extremely annoying when trying to look at levels on the camera, as if done hastily, it can introduce noise/clicks into a camera-mounted recording.

This is one advantage I like about using my MixPre-D, I can see the levels even when the GH3 gets silly and stops displaying them. (I also monitor through the GH3 headphone jack with earbuds)

Best of lucks, a lot of good advice on this thread, despite the name-calling and infighting about blind driving :P )
 
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