Rumor: Canon 4k super35 camera

[S. Matthews]

like many non traditional wars there is no real winning, now you could win battles, but that is still very arbitrary and subjective. I guess you could win if one of the companies goes bankrupt but to be honest I doubt that will happen to either in the near future.

But yes Canon could not care less as the electronic canon mount will have them selling to red customers either way. So yes this could be seen as red drumming up some controversy to get a little spotlight on them form people who normally wouldn't take notice, some may see it as wrong, I just see good business strategy.

I just find it interesting that people would not buy a product based on emotions related to how the company presents itself, and not the product they are offering. To be honest there are many companies that take advantage abuse and even cut corners and their customers know it but keep coming back (not talking cameras here), heck some of them I have very strong feelings about and as a person who would like a little more concern about a quality product people need rather than the bottom line of a company, I find it embarrassing that I still shop and purchase products from these companies as at times they are the best (most often only) option.

though despite all this i look forward to Canon's announcement, I'm more interested in their next line of still camera's because lets face it they make amazing still camera's always will, but I'm very interested to see if it's the same pattern for them or something very different.

Either way it's going to be a very eventful month November for so many reasons, I keep finding out about things coming out then I'm starting to worry that the world might end on 2012 as it's all too good to be true (just kidding).

Have a good weekend!

 

[bruceallen]

Btw. who announced first, Red or Canon? I think that Red was 1st.

Canon did.

Well, I certainly agree that Canon trails everyone else... not just by weeks, but typically by YEARS. That's the way they've always been.

Maybe in the USA... but for European (and South African in my case) folks Canon was YEARS AHEAD in releasing a true 25p camera.

If ever you're wondering why DVXuser is mostly an American phenomenon... it's because only you Americans had to wait for the DVX100 to get 24p. The rest of the world was shooting 25p happily on their XL1s and XM1s for years before that. So DVX has a lot less meaning elsewhere... thanks to Canon.

Next up, I have to say that the Canon 5D Mk2 was a rather revolutionary device, price and performance-wise. "Canon trails everyone else"...?

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the direction they'll go in. Canon has a history of giving people what they don't want and what they're not anticipating. So a 2/3" fixed-lens 4K camera sounds pretty much exactly "right" for what direction they'd head in.

With respect, Sir, I must disagree again. My bets are that Canon will release:
- at least two video cameras on Nov. 3, with at least one EOS-mount option and a PL option. I remember the photo of the XL1 surrounded by EOS mount lenses - I'm sure Canon can't wait to have a S35 sensor camera there (using EOS lenses on an XL1 was always stupid due to the 7x crop factor zoom...)
- these cameras may cost more than the AF100 but they will be a hell of a lot sharper and have better low-light and color performance.
- versus the FS100... not so sure. Ability to electronically control EOS lenses will be a selling point for anyone upgrading from 5D or 7D who has a bunch of lenses.
- versus Scarlet... they will offer a nice 1080p 50mbps workable codec and great color out of the box. Plus playback in-camera, XLR inputs, worldwide service centers, no $500 per-camera ownership transfer fee, accessories not on constant backorder... quite a lot, actually - even if they don't have 4K or RAW or even > 60fps. Be nice if they did, though
- plus of course a 1D replacement and 5D Mk2 replacement with pretty darn good video mode themselves...

To me, this article from May 2010 still provides the clearest insight into what Canon might be up to:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/5/22/hollywood-squeeze-more-out-of-canons-5d-mkii.html

Wow, I sound like a Canon fanboy after this - when actually I am a RED fanboy. Actually, I am just a filmmaking fanboy. Waiting for something like a cheaper, lighter, smaller Sony F3 or something like those S35 or FF35 Scarlets that Red said would come out in 2009 for $7.5K or $9K... 2/3 is cute - but I'm interested in shooting stereo under indie conditions (read: not enough money for a ton of light to cover wide shots). So I would really, really like to shoot with a S35 or 4/3 sensor for its lower noise characteristics. Probably a bunch of people will now jump on me for this, but frankly I encourage them to actually go and shoot some stereo first before telling me that 2/3rd or smaller sensor is always the way to go. For stereo, having slightly defocused backgrounds due to shallower DOF is a hell of a lot better than having in-focus backgrounds and a picture that is noisy is hell because of a crap tiny sensor. Just my 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Barry_Green]

Maybe in the USA... but for European (and South African in my case) folks Canon was YEARS AHEAD in releasing a true 25p camera.

Nah. Canon didn't have actual progressive for a long time. If you're talking about "frame mode", that was a Panasonic invention. It was first on the AG-EZ1. Canon followed up almost two years later with the XL1. Only reason the Canon had it, by the way, is because the XL1 used the chipset out of the EZ1.

You didn't hear much about it because the EZ1 was a lousy seller. It was a weird tube shape, and it got slaughtered in the marketplace by the VX1000 which came out at the same time. Two years later Canon repackaged the chips as the XL1 and, wow, all of a sudden people discovered "frame mode"! But it wasn't a Canon thing; they came to it two years after Panasonic already had it out.

The rest of the world was shooting 25p happily on their XL1s and XM1s for years before that.

Meh. Frame mode wasn't progressive. Canon didn't get true progressive until *another seven years passed*. They didn't release true progressive until the XL2 in 2004.

Next up, I have to say that the Canon 5D Mk2 was a rather revolutionary device, price and performance-wise. "Canon trails everyone else"...?

Yes, Canon trails everyone else. They got lucky with the 5D Mark II, but even then that doesn't count, we're talking about professional camcorders, not DSLRs. So we're talking about things like the XHA1, XF300, XLH1, stuff like that. Unless you think that Canon's answer to the F3 is going to be a DSLR, in which case, well, I guess that's a different conversation.

With respect, Sir, I must disagree again. My bets are that Canon will release:
- at least two video cameras on Nov. 3, with at least one EOS-mount option and a PL option. I remember the photo of the XL1 surrounded by EOS mount lenses - I'm sure Canon can't wait to have a S35 sensor camera there (using EOS lenses on an XL1 was always stupid due to the 7x crop factor zoom...)
- these cameras may cost more than the AF100 but they will be a hell of a lot sharper and have better low-light and color performance.
- versus the FS100... not so sure. Ability to electronically control EOS lenses will be a selling point for anyone upgrading from 5D or 7D who has a bunch of lenses.
- versus Scarlet... they will offer a nice 1080p 50mbps workable codec and great color out of the box. Plus playback in-camera, XLR inputs, worldwide service centers, no $500 per-camera ownership transfer fee, accessories not on constant backorder... quite a lot, actually - even if they don't have 4K or RAW or even > 60fps. Be nice if they did, though
- plus of course a 1D replacement and 5D Mk2 replacement with pretty darn good video mode themselves...

Is that an actual bet though? Are you putting up your $20? :thumbsup:

 

[OPHERBA]

Canon did.


Maybe in the USA... but for European (and South African in my case) folks Canon was YEARS AHEAD in releasing a true 25p camera.
www.boacinema.com

Sorry, completely wrong. As a person who gave Jarred the first ever XL2 25p footage to uploaded at dvxuser.com I can confirm having a Panasonic DVX100E (PAL version) for at list a year before the Canon was out.

Thanks.

Johnnie

 

[maarek]

Meh. Frame mode wasn't progressive. Canon didn't get true progressive until *another seven years passed*.

Wrong. Frame mode was as progressive as any progressive image. It was derived from interlaced sensors yes, but if the end result is progressive, then it is progressive.

Also the Canon hv20 was pretty ahead once again, so Canon does not "always trail" eventhough they do like to do that.

 

[Barry_Green]

Wrong. Frame mode was as progressive as any progressive image.

This was debated ad nauseum at the time. Simple fact is: the XL1 had "frame mode", and the XL2 had "progressive scan". There is a difference. "Frame mode" produces results that look like progressive scan, but at substantially lower resolution.

Also the Canon hv20 was pretty ahead once again, so Canon does not "always trail" eventhough they do like to do that.

I actually bought an HV20. That was a pretty innovative little camera. But, it was from the consumer division, all I've been talking about is their "pro/prosumer" stuff. And anyway, both my responses here could probably be lumped under "splitting hairs" so ... enough is probably enough, and we'll find out in three weeks.

 

[f64manray]

..enough is probably enough, and we'll find out in three weeks.

I'd keep your eye out for the new 1D cam being announced Tuesday, Oct 18th. What that cam will be capable of should give you a good "heads up" for what will come in 3 weeks. It will probably be the same thing but with XLR connectors, etc.

 

[Justyn]

Barry.. I agree wholeheartedly and having had an XL1 the frame mode wasn't anywhere near as good as what the DVX had. I too also think that Canon has been so late to so much of this revolution.. and indeed they did totally stumble onto something with the 5D. They designed that video part as an afterthought and felt that it would be useful for news guys who mostly shoot video but ocassionally have to shoot a bit of video. I also believe this is why the darn thing overheats so damn much and is limited to 12 minutes. I love the 5D in what it can do, but It's always seemed not ready for prime time. When I shoot I like to get in and out and whenever I have a 5D guy with me having to wait for his sensor to cool down is such a buzzkill that I sometimes go jihad... and no one likes that..

I for one am interested in the Red and canon announcement but I"m completely happy with my GH2 and wouldn't sell it either way. It's just so darn versatile and delivers such a great image... Same with the 150... I like having a variety of tools.

 

[Allan Black]

The high end camera sales guys here are currently tearing their hair out they've got nothing else to do.

Cheers.

 

[hawaj]

Seems like Jim is the most excited person on a planet about what will happen Nov. 3rd from. ))

 

[SPZ]

The new EOS in the 1D line should be a very interesting proposition indeed. I remember people also talking about modules for the next 1Ds, it would be really interesting to see what Canon will come up with the 1D. If it has no aliasing issues and has 1080p at 50mbit 4:2:2, its going to sell like hotcakes. Don't forget, its full frame, and many just love that full frame image- including me!

 

[yoclay]

The new EOS in the 1D line should be a very interesting proposition indeed. I remember people also talking about modules for the next 1Ds, it would be really interesting to see what Canon will come up with the 1D. If it has no aliasing issues and has 1080p at 50mbit 4:2:2, its going to sell like hotcakes. Don't forget, its full frame, and many just love that full frame image- including me!

No one said that this camera will even have video. It is entirely possible that they decided to make it a pure photo camera and will allocate the video mission to another model. They probably don't want to steal the thunder from the Nov. 3 announcement either. I mean honestly if the 1D does have the next generation of video, then the cat is out of the bag for the 5D MIII release too.

 

[f64manray]

No one said that this camera will even have video. It is entirely possible that they decided to make it a pure photo camera and will allocate the video mission to another model. They probably don't want to steal the thunder from the Nov. 3 announcement either. I mean honestly if the 1D does have the next generation of video, then the cat is out of the bag for the 5D MIII release too.

Well, if it's going to be 18MP (as reported), it would be going backward for stills. The only thing that really explains 18MP is a video oriented top notch DSLR, and some pretty clean high ISO images for video and stills. This is supposedly a merger of the 1Ds & 1D lines. At 18MP, It would seem like it better deliver clean High ISO images and DR equal to film to justify that 3MP back step for the 1Ds user. Who knows what dual DigicV will deliver. This new 1D cam will be readily embraced at 18MP if it gains those two things. ...and of course the elimination of visible aliasing/moire in video. Canon may be finally getting the message that photographers aren't that interested in just a high MP image machine in a bullet proof case. Plus the enthusiastic reception of the 5DII video really threw them for a loop and probably redirected their attention as to where they want the 1D line to go. And I would dare say ALL canon DSLRs will have video in the future. No exceptions. At $5-7K, It better produce exceptional cinema images as well as stills. It's just the new age, and the way of the future.

 

[yoclay]

Well, if it's going to be 18MP (as reported), it would be going backward for stills. The only thing that really explains 18MP is a video oriented top notch DSLR, and some pretty clean high ISO images for video and stills. This is supposedly a merger of the 1Ds & 1D lines. At 18MP, It would seem like it better deliver clean High ISO images and DR equal to film to justify that 3MP back step for the 1Ds user. Who knows what dual DigicV will deliver. This new 1D cam will be readily embraced at 18MP if it gains those two things. ...and of course the elimination of visible aliasing/moire in video. Canon may be finally getting the message that photographers aren't that interested in just a high MP image machine in a bullet proof case. Plus the enthusiastic reception of the 5DII video really threw them for a loop and probably redirected their attention as to where they want the 1D line to go. And I would dare say ALL canon DSLRs will have video in the future. No exceptions. At $5-7K, It better produce exceptional cinema images as well as stills. It's just the new age, and the way of the future.

Here's hoping you are right.

 

[bruceallen]

You didn't hear much about it because the EZ1 was a lousy seller. It was a weird tube shape, and it got slaughtered in the marketplace by the VX1000 which came out at the same time. Two years later Canon repackaged the chips as the XL1 and, wow, all of a sudden people discovered "frame mode"! But it wasn't a Canon thing; they came to it two years after Panasonic already had it out.

That's fascinating! Good grief - why didn't Panasonic just put that thing in a proper body? Add a manual lens option? Add a Firewire output?

Meh. Frame mode wasn't progressive. Canon didn't get true progressive until *another seven years passed*. They didn't release true progressive until the XL2 in 2004.

How the sensor works doesn't matter to me if I get a 25p image as an end result - and XL1 had perfect motion blur, no artifacts, sensitivity advantages... heck even no CMOS skew - and better-looking un-aliased images at a pixel-peeping level than many 1080p DSLRs today, haha! The PAL version produced about 400 lines of resolution - not the full 576 - but still plenty. Many cams at the time couldn't even resolve that and more importantly, most TVs couldn't resolve that either!

Why do people who like the NTSC DVX100 (Oct 2002 - recording 480 lines of progressive picture detail to 20mbps DV - since it had to redundantly store every 5th frame) not see how damn similar the PAL XL1 (Feb 1998 - 400 lines of progressive picture detail to 25mbps DV) was?

Canon gave us PAL folks an affordable (or affordably rentable) filmmaker's camera (with interchangeable lenses no less!) that produced a progressive image really close to the DVX100 that Americans raved about... 4 1/2 years later. Yep... still not sure how on earth Canon can be considered "years behind?"

Sure in late 2002 you could buy a DVX100 and get a crisper pic than an XL1... but you could also rent a HD camera like a Varicam... whereas in 1998 it was damn hard to get anything with higher progressive resolution! No offense to the DVX100. It is like a brother of the XL1 and XM1 to me. Used the cam, like the cam, like the people who use it. The guy who directed November is my friend at work!

Yes, Canon trails everyone else. They got lucky with the 5D Mark II, but even then that doesn't count, we're talking about professional camcorders, not DSLRs. So we're talking about things like the XHA1, XF300, XLH1, stuff like that. Unless you think that Canon's answer to the F3 is going to be a DSLR, in which case, well, I guess that's a different conversation.

No, I guess they are coming out with filmmaker-targeted cameras... I say "filmmaker" because when you say "videographer" then suddenly everyone wants internal ND filter wheels... and I'm not sure they can do that as well as support EOS lenses?

Also, they won't neglect video mode on the new DSLRs. Come NAB 2012, I suspect they could have a nice combo of new DSLRs (5D Mk2 replacement, 1D replacement?) for cross-over people and use as C-camera - as well as the new filmmaker-optimized cameras.

BTW, personally I'd prefer a DSLR form factor - since I want to shoot 3D I want the best picture in the smallest, lightest and cheapest product. No need for EVF or big monitor, no need for XLR inputs. Just gimme DSLRs with syncable camera and lens controls and genlock! But I don't think Canon will do that, I'm a kinda small market!

Is that an actual bet though? Are you putting up your $20? :thumbsup:

Barry, I love reading your posts over the years and would rather just buy you $20 worth of beer if I ever get to meet you. But heck yes - am totally down to put down $20 if it makes it more fun!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[androbot2084]

When HDV was first introduced in 2003 it sure took the thunder out of the Panasonic DVX100 and the Canon XL2

 

[Bassman2003]

The new EOS in the 1D line should be a very interesting proposition indeed. I remember people also talking about modules for the next 1Ds, it would be really interesting to see what Canon will come up with the 1D. If it has no aliasing issues and has 1080p at 50mbit 4:2:2, its going to sell like hotcakes. Don't forget, its full frame, and many just love that full frame image- including me!

Actually, the 1D line is not always full frame. a 1D camera is a 1.3x crop. a 1Ds is the full frame version. Canon has used the 5D model as the test run for the full frame sensor in past years. Releasing the sensor in the 5D, tweaking then releasing the 1Ds after some time. Make no mistake, the bread and butter of Canon's photo business is the professional sports shooter which the 1D line is designed around. This is where they can sell their $8,000 lenses as well. Video is more important these days but still shooting is the priority with auto focus the main concern.

I hope Canon & Nikon do stop the MP race as it is just overkill in so many instances. The 5D at 21MP is plenty especially since so much winds up on the internet these days. Lets hope DR and clean mid-high ISO are at the top of the list. I don't care about ISO 1,000,000 but I would really use an ISO 800 that looks like ISO 200 of yesteryear.

I think Canon really has an opportunity. We will see if they can capitalize.

 

[SPZ]

Actually, the 1D line is not always full frame. a 1D camera is a 1.3x crop. a 1Ds is the full frame version. Canon has used the 5D model as the test run for the full frame sensor in past years. Releasing the sensor in the 5D, tweaking then releasing the 1Ds after some time. Make no mistake, the bread and butter of Canon's photo business is the professional sports shooter which the 1D line is designed around. This is where they can sell their $8,000 lenses as well. Video is more important these days but still shooting is the priority with auto focus the main concern.

I hope Canon & Nikon do stop the MP race as it is just overkill in so many instances. The 5D at 21MP is plenty especially since so much winds up on the internet these days. Lets hope DR and clean mid-high ISO are at the top of the list. I don't care about ISO 1,000,000 but I would really use an ISO 800 that looks like ISO 200 of yesteryear.


I think Canon really has an opportunity. We will see if they can capitalize.

I agree, I wrote about it being full frame based on canon rumors CR3 spec list, which states a merger with the 1D and 1Ds lines...

 

[f64manray]

Actually, the 1D line is not always full frame. a 1D camera is a 1.3x crop. a 1Ds is the full frame version. Canon has used the 5D model as the test run for the full frame sensor in past years. Releasing the sensor in the 5D, tweaking then releasing the 1Ds after some time. Make no mistake, the bread and butter of Canon's photo business is the professional sports shooter which the 1D line is designed around. This is where they can sell their $8,000 lenses as well. Video is more important these days but still shooting is the priority with auto focus the main concern.

I hope Canon & Nikon do stop the MP race as it is just overkill in so many instances. The 5D at 21MP is plenty especially since so much winds up on the internet these days. Lets hope DR and clean mid-high ISO are at the top of the list. I don't care about ISO 1,000,000 but I would really use an ISO 800 that looks like ISO 200 of yesteryear.

I think Canon really has an opportunity. We will see if they can capitalize.

Actually, it was the FF sensor on the 1DsIII that was bumped down for use on the now legendary 5DII, not the other way around.

 

[Jim Martin]

When HDV was first introduced in 2003 it sure took the thunder out of the Panasonic DVX100 and the Canon XL2

Actually, the DVX came out in 2004, the xl2 a year later, and a month after the xl2, Sony intro'd the Z1 at DV Expo here in LA.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

ps- Barry, I look forward to you buying me $20 worth of Beer!.....bet on!