Judging by the IQ of the XF305, definitely. They could have a real contender for HDTV production.
Rumor: Canon 4k super35 camera
- Thread starter Postmaster
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Judging by the IQ of the XF305, definitely. They could have a real contender for HDTV production.
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
Jon Fauer reports that Canon just announced the opening of the Canon Hollywood Professional Technology and Support Center right in Hollywood.
Hmm...
Maybe we where all wrong.
http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/canon-in-hollywood/
Hmm...
Maybe we where all wrong.
http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/canon-in-hollywood/
This would be great for everyone. Panavision and the unions have held the industry by the balls for too long... It'll be amazing if companies like Canon and Red can finally bring some real free-market competition to change up all this long-standing industry dogma.
... the next few years are going to exciting!
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Cool, but kinda meh for all of the people wanting a hardware announcement.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Hey, the photocopier was hardware, remember...
And, also remember... nowhere has Canon ever said that their Nov. 3rd announcement was going to involve hardware or a product of any type.
Actually, the announcement of a support facility in Hollywood would seem to be a harbinger of a hardware announcement like a S35 HD/4k cine cam.
According to the article:
I think this seals it for me. Canon is probably going to announce on Nov 3rd that they are entering the digital cinema market and by the way here are two cameras to start us off. That to me would be a historic announcement because it points to a new direction the company is taking.
I also personally think they will announce that the EOS mount will start to support motion picture functions, which would also be historic because that has been a still camera mount for 20+ years. They will probably have new EOS video/cinema lenses, IMO.
I think this seals it for me. Canon is probably going to announce on Nov 3rd that they are entering the digital cinema market and by the way here are two cameras to start us off. That to me would be a historic announcement because it points to a new direction the company is taking.
I also personally think they will announce that the EOS mount will start to support motion picture functions, which would also be historic because that has been a still camera mount for 20+ years. They will probably have new EOS video/cinema lenses, IMO.
My thoughts exactly. In my opinion if they're doing this then the hardware announcement is a forgone conclusion.
Panavision is a company that has done a great deal for this industry. I can count the staffers there who have helped me over the years on more than one hand. They have had programs that donate equipment to student projects and free AC training for years. They are a sometimes clumsy company, but a good company at-heart. I don't know of another film equipment manufacturer more philanthropic than Panavision.
Many IA members on this forum may also disagree that the unions are holding the industry hostage. I am lucky enough to live in a right-to-work state that also has very strong relationships with the IA, Teamsters and other guilds. Not everything is without its warts, but I do appreciate what collective bargaining has done for me over the years. I have nothing to show pension or healthcare-wise from any of the non-union work I do in reality TV. Those less-than-stellar wages don't go far toward securing one's future either.
Of course, some are content to starve and suffer for their art...
maranfilms
Veteran
The dslr really has changed the game. I doubt Canon ever thought they would be entering the cinema market in hollywood before the 5d. Their not a dumb company, pretty much why they have been in business as long as they have. The strange thing for me is why they have taken so long to deliver a large chip camcorder.
My guess (and hope) is the reason is because they want to launch such a camera with an EOS video lens. But Canon is also well known for taking their time. They've been designing products for a very long time so I trust that however long it took is however long it really takes.
This is an interesting chronology of events:
-CR guy has a CR3 (take it as fact) rumor that Oct 18th, we will see a 1D (1DsIV or 1DV, whatever) announcement. He seems convinced it will be a 16-18MP cam which could be good for their video feature, and may imply great clean high ISO. As far as stills goes, I would trade high MP for more DR and clean high ISO ...but I digress.
-announcement of their Hollywood support facility
These two things would seem to be ideal for an announcement of a dedicated large sensor cine camera on Nov 3rd. This 16-18MP on the new 1D cam is just bazarre for a stills only cam and seems more suited as a compromise between a stills/video cam. To do this on their flagship pro camera, the video would need to be outstanding for them to give up pushing it to a 30+MP cam. Can't wait for Oct 18th to see how this shakes out. We could see a clean high ISO, DR equal to film, superb codec for video and high frame rate for stills.
....wouldn't hurt if they threw in a follow auto focus that could track a chosen subject.
-CR guy has a CR3 (take it as fact) rumor that Oct 18th, we will see a 1D (1DsIV or 1DV, whatever) announcement. He seems convinced it will be a 16-18MP cam which could be good for their video feature, and may imply great clean high ISO. As far as stills goes, I would trade high MP for more DR and clean high ISO ...but I digress.
-announcement of their Hollywood support facility
These two things would seem to be ideal for an announcement of a dedicated large sensor cine camera on Nov 3rd. This 16-18MP on the new 1D cam is just bazarre for a stills only cam and seems more suited as a compromise between a stills/video cam. To do this on their flagship pro camera, the video would need to be outstanding for them to give up pushing it to a 30+MP cam. Can't wait for Oct 18th to see how this shakes out. We could see a clean high ISO, DR equal to film, superb codec for video and high frame rate for stills.
....wouldn't hurt if they threw in a follow auto focus that could track a chosen subject.
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Having watched Canon closely for about a decade -- if they're coming to the "cinema" market after only two years of accidentally stumbling upon the video success of the 5D Mark 2 -- this is lightning fast for Canon.
A year of business school in a sentence -- you almost always lose money by being first to the market with anything. Canon lives by this.
The opening of that new center in Hollywood tells us that something new is coming. You don't open a new "advanced" service center in Hollywood with all the other stuff in their Press Release to simply service 5D Mark 2's or adjust L lenses.
So, I'm coming closer to buying the new video ("cinema") camera argument, but I'm having a real, real tough time swallowing "4k" coming from Canon. There's simply not enough of an established broad marketplace/demand for 4k -- and it would truly be "historic" if Canon has decided they're going to lead the way to global 4k. 1080p -- sure. Higher bitrate and intra-frame -- sure. Much higher frame rates -- sure. New video optimized lenses -- sure. "RAW" video -- probably not.
IF, and I do mean 'IF' new video ("cinema") cameras are on the way, you can bet your bottom dollar they're going to cost more than competitors. Anything "PL" would be in the 20k to 40k range. An EOS video camera along the lines of the AF-100 or FS100 would start at 10k.
Also, the release of a new "cinema" camera line points toward the 5D Mark 3 being dumbed down relative to video.
Do I hope I'm wrong? You bet. I'd love to see an FS100 competitor priced at $4999. I'd love to see a video optimized 5D Mark 3 around $3000. Unfortunately, I wouldn't bet against their track record.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, I certainly agree that Canon trails everyone else... not just by weeks, but typically by YEARS. That's the way they've always been. That said, they wouldn't really be "pioneering" in 4K if they introduced a 4K product... they already teased the hair dryer, and Red has been shipping "4k" products for four years now. Which is about long enough for Canon to get around to doing something...
Odds of a large-sensor inexpensive 35mm-dof-style camera to go head-to-head with the AF100 & FS100? Extremely, extremely low. Even though that's what everyone wants and is expecting.
Odds of it being a revision of the "hair dryer"? Quite a bit higher. Much higher. Because they've already demonstrated it. There's never been a hint of a hint of a tease of a hint from them about any large-sensor cine camera, but they have already shown the hair dryer prototype. And what use is 4K to anyone in reality? Not much... but for cinema, for Hollywood, yes it's directly applicable... and now with the announcement of the hollywood service center...
The more I think about it, the more I think this is the direction they'll go in. Canon has a history of giving people what they don't want and what they're not anticipating. So a 2/3" fixed-lens 4K camera sounds pretty much exactly "right" for what direction they'd head in. Which would also, by the way, put them fairly squarely in competition with Red's Scarlet. Which also, by the way, makes it make a whole lot more sense why Red would move their announcement to go "head to head" with Canon.
Yep... this makes sense. The 4K hair dryer will fulfill what Hollywood's been clamoring for, a small lightweight camera that can go anywhere and get sharp images. Doesn't really matter that it's 2/3"... they don't need it to be any bigger than that, because Hollywood isn't looking for a new "A" camera. They've got "A" cameras coming out of their ears - Epics and Alexas and Phantoms and the F65 and F35 and everything else. Hollywood wants little "B" and "C" cameras, for things that they've been using DSLRs for... hence, enter the hair dryer...
So, yeah, there it is. The picture from the crystal ball is getting sharper. So now it's time to get off the fence and take a stand. Bets on the table. I predict that both Canon and Red will introduce 2/3"-sensor 4K products on Nov. 3rd (yes, I'm predicting Red has abandoned 3K entirely and has gone to 4K for the Scarlet.) Red will have raw recording, interchangeable lenses, and 120fps; Canon will have... the hair dryer, 4K, at $8995, probably to MPEG-2. Not sure if the Canon will have interchangeable lenses or not... for their lens business it makes sense, but they don't have many 4K-rated lenses at 2/3" size (if any) so maybe it'll be a fixed-lens product. The hair dryer prototype definitely wasn't interchangeable. So, yeah, that sounds about right -- a fixed-lens, 2/3", 4K-to-MPEG2 Canon, going up against a fixed- or interchangeable-lens Scarlet, 4K to raw, with VFR up to 120fps, both of them (configured in a shooting package) clocking in at about $8995...
Odds of a large-sensor inexpensive 35mm-dof-style camera to go head-to-head with the AF100 & FS100? Extremely, extremely low. Even though that's what everyone wants and is expecting.
Odds of it being a revision of the "hair dryer"? Quite a bit higher. Much higher. Because they've already demonstrated it. There's never been a hint of a hint of a tease of a hint from them about any large-sensor cine camera, but they have already shown the hair dryer prototype. And what use is 4K to anyone in reality? Not much... but for cinema, for Hollywood, yes it's directly applicable... and now with the announcement of the hollywood service center...
The more I think about it, the more I think this is the direction they'll go in. Canon has a history of giving people what they don't want and what they're not anticipating. So a 2/3" fixed-lens 4K camera sounds pretty much exactly "right" for what direction they'd head in. Which would also, by the way, put them fairly squarely in competition with Red's Scarlet. Which also, by the way, makes it make a whole lot more sense why Red would move their announcement to go "head to head" with Canon.
Yep... this makes sense. The 4K hair dryer will fulfill what Hollywood's been clamoring for, a small lightweight camera that can go anywhere and get sharp images. Doesn't really matter that it's 2/3"... they don't need it to be any bigger than that, because Hollywood isn't looking for a new "A" camera. They've got "A" cameras coming out of their ears - Epics and Alexas and Phantoms and the F65 and F35 and everything else. Hollywood wants little "B" and "C" cameras, for things that they've been using DSLRs for... hence, enter the hair dryer...
So, yeah, there it is. The picture from the crystal ball is getting sharper. So now it's time to get off the fence and take a stand. Bets on the table. I predict that both Canon and Red will introduce 2/3"-sensor 4K products on Nov. 3rd (yes, I'm predicting Red has abandoned 3K entirely and has gone to 4K for the Scarlet.) Red will have raw recording, interchangeable lenses, and 120fps; Canon will have... the hair dryer, 4K, at $8995, probably to MPEG-2. Not sure if the Canon will have interchangeable lenses or not... for their lens business it makes sense, but they don't have many 4K-rated lenses at 2/3" size (if any) so maybe it'll be a fixed-lens product. The hair dryer prototype definitely wasn't interchangeable. So, yeah, that sounds about right -- a fixed-lens, 2/3", 4K-to-MPEG2 Canon, going up against a fixed- or interchangeable-lens Scarlet, 4K to raw, with VFR up to 120fps, both of them (configured in a shooting package) clocking in at about $8995...
And now, for something completely different:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/10/new-dslr-on-tuesday-october-18-2011-cr3/
I'm willing to take you on on that guess, Barry. ( lets bet a beer if one day I get to go to the US, or you come over HK or Macau ) I predict the November 3rd announcement to be of the next generation XL H1 camera with an S35 sensor. The XL H1 form factor (or the XL range throughout the years) always had a "pseudo film cam" approach to it. It was made to look like a cinema camera, and was marketed as such in certain markets- remember the hype of 28 Days Later?- I really can't see it being 4K, specially due to the recording aspect of it. I just don't see Canon going for the JVC 4K recording approach. I also don't see them going SSD's or making any form of high end 4K codec, and since they developed their variation of the 50 Mbits 4:2:2 mpeg codec which was approved by the BBC, i don't see them abandoning it just yet, at least in this generation. I think We'll probably see the first 4k or 2k camera from the Big 3 Japanese manufacturers either coming from JVC- they always go first- or with Panasonic and AVC Ultra. I'm sure we'll have something interesting coming up from Panasonic, and my prediction would be as soon as NAB. Jan, I'm sure you're not going to comment on this, right ?
http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/10/new-dslr-on-tuesday-october-18-2011-cr3/
I'm willing to take you on on that guess, Barry. ( lets bet a beer if one day I get to go to the US, or you come over HK or Macau
) I predict the November 3rd announcement to be of the next generation XL H1 camera with an S35 sensor. The XL H1 form factor (or the XL range throughout the years) always had a "pseudo film cam" approach to it. It was made to look like a cinema camera, and was marketed as such in certain markets- remember the hype of 28 Days Later?- I really can't see it being 4K, specially due to the recording aspect of it. I just don't see Canon going for the JVC 4K recording approach. I also don't see them going SSD's or making any form of high end 4K codec, and since they developed their variation of the 50 Mbits 4:2:2 mpeg codec which was approved by the BBC, i don't see them abandoning it just yet, at least in this generation. I think We'll probably see the first 4k or 2k camera from the Big 3 Japanese manufacturers either coming from JVC- they always go first- or with Panasonic and AVC Ultra. I'm sure we'll have something interesting coming up from Panasonic, and my prediction would be as soon as NAB. Jan, I'm sure you're not going to comment on this, right ? 
VGurcu
Well-known member
Pretty bold claim Barry. But the bulk of your theory comes from a 'hair dryer' model that I think has nothing to do with the direction Canon is steering towards...
Here's the press release...
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e024803b2337
That translates into: SALES AND SERVICE CENTER.
The question is -- do you open a new sales and service center for the "hair dryer"?
It states: "On-site repair operations will include two state-of-the-art camera body and lens adjustment rooms."
Does the "hair dryer" require lens adjustment? Does it have a camera body?
I'm just playing here. And I'm not even sold on the fact that Nov. 3 is going to be a camera announcement. But, I do assert that the press release is the most significant indicator that something is on the horizon.
It's not going to be the hair dryer and it's not going to be 4K (IMO). The hair dryer had a huge box underneath it with the electronics to run it. This was a developmental prototype, but I don't think Canon is ready to package a 4K device in an envelope they're happy with it. The hair dryer was also envisioned to be more of a mass marketing thing. This new Hollywood center is obviously for cinema cameras and equipment.
Also, Canon historically introduces features in lower end models and then later puts them into higher end models. Like Live View (precursor to video on 5DMKII) was introduced in the 40D first. So I think it's unlikely they're going to jump out of the gate with 4K. But they are certainly headed that way. It looks like they're committing to digital cinema. It's only a matter of time (like in classic Canon fashion) that they will design a flagship Canon digital cinema camera.
But for now what's realistic are the current rumors: one, maybe two cameras, probably APS-C sensor, 1080P and their 4:2:2 codec. That alone would make a lot of people very happy if the price is right and the DR is good, but of course RED will have a field day saying it's only 1080P or it doesn't do RAW or 120 fps or whatever. That's why they feel so confident.
Also, Canon historically introduces features in lower end models and then later puts them into higher end models. Like Live View (precursor to video on 5DMKII) was introduced in the 40D first. So I think it's unlikely they're going to jump out of the gate with 4K. But they are certainly headed that way. It looks like they're committing to digital cinema. It's only a matter of time (like in classic Canon fashion) that they will design a flagship Canon digital cinema camera.
But for now what's realistic are the current rumors: one, maybe two cameras, probably APS-C sensor, 1080P and their 4:2:2 codec. That alone would make a lot of people very happy if the price is right and the DR is good, but of course RED will have a field day saying it's only 1080P or it doesn't do RAW or 120 fps or whatever. That's why they feel so confident.
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Grug
Veteran
I for one will be genuinely surprised if either Canon or Red come out with 2/3" camera announcements on the 3rd.
From all of my dealings with Canon in the last couple of years, the success and impact of having large-sensor video in their DSLRs has clearly not gone unnoticed with them, and they've seemed genuinely excited by the possibilities of it (which the announcement of this new centre in LA confirms). Similarly (and in spite of the 2/3" prototype Scarlets Red have produced) I'm pretty sure Red recognises that most of the momentum in video camera sales at the moment, lies in large-sensors - that was always the main source of hype around the notion of Scarlet, affordable S35mm recording in decent format.
From all of my dealings with Canon in the last couple of years, the success and impact of having large-sensor video in their DSLRs has clearly not gone unnoticed with them, and they've seemed genuinely excited by the possibilities of it (which the announcement of this new centre in LA confirms). Similarly (and in spite of the 2/3" prototype Scarlets Red have produced) I'm pretty sure Red recognises that most of the momentum in video camera sales at the moment, lies in large-sensors - that was always the main source of hype around the notion of Scarlet, affordable S35mm recording in decent format.