rolling shutter and jello DSLR

I already did explain it. I've seen that scene, and in my opinion it's just as likely that the fast pan on the steadicam caused the camera to lean slightly. That wasn't a tripod shot, it was a steadicam shot, and I think it's very likely that the whip pan motion caused the camera to tilt a little, which made the image lean a little.

In all the thousands and thousands of films that have been made, you'd think there'd be some evidence somewhere about "skew", if it exists. But it doesn't. The only example anyone has ever quoted is that Bourne shot -- and I think a perfectly reasonable explanation says that even in that scene, it wasn't "skew". So if film skews, why don't we see it all the time, like we see in CMOS camcorders? 'Cause film doesn't skew. The film shutter acts a lot more like a global shutter than it does a rolling shutter; most of the frame is exposed globally and the actual "rolling" bit only affects it for a very short amount of time.

But, soon enough I'll grab some film and put it to the test in a completely isolated circumstance that will leave no doubt whatsoever as to whether film skews. All I'm saying until then is -- I don't think it does. It doesn't make sense as to why it should, and in observation -- it just doesn't.
 
Barry_Green said:
But, soon enough I'll grab some film and put it to the test in a completely isolated circumstance that will leave no doubt whatsoever as to whether film skews. All I'm saying until then is -- I don't think it does. It doesn't make sense as to why it should, and in observation -- it just doesn't.
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Be good to see the test, I have bought into the 'film skews' idea - but this is based on little more than the fact that I have read it elsewhere - but it would be good to see some actual tests.
 
Test the d3100 and a bunch of DSLR'S today I was so disappointed, jello all over the place. in testing this guy told me to put them on a tripod and pan slow then BAMMM looking good now. I will go with the d3100 for now till they fix the pan and jello effect.
 
blastdvx said:
Test the d3100 and a bunch of DSLR'S today I was so disappointed, jello all over the place. in testing this guy told me to put them on a tripod and pan slow then BAMMM looking good now. I will go with the d3100 for now till they fix the pan and jello effect.
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There are lots and lots of people, doing TV ads, international theatrical releases, high profile syndicated TV series, major label music promos and all manner of great stuff who have come across the same issues you have and - using good technique - circumnavigated the issue.

By all means give up if DSLRs don't entirely suit what it is you want to achieve and look for something else, but if you are abandoning DSLRs simply because of skew I think you first need to learn how to handle a CMOS sensor before entirely ruling them out.

But, of course, if your stuff involves a lot of whip pans and jerky handheld stuff - and you are not interested in fixing it in post - then I would look at a video camera with a global shutter - as it will avoid any skew.
 
blastdvx said:
I will go with the d3100 for now till they fix the pan and jello effect.
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I don't think there is any real rush to 'fix' the rolling shutter on CMOS sensors, perhaps faster processor speeds might increase the read rate (to be honest I don't even know if the read rate is a feature of the sensor itself or the processor ?) - but as most people who (professionally) use DSLRs for video tend to avoid rolling shutter artefacts through good technique and most casual videographers don't really give a s**t, I can't see it being a priority in the near future (?).
 
Lee Wilson said:
I don't think there is any real rush to 'fix' the rolling shutter on CMOS sensors, perhaps faster processor speeds might increase the read rate (to be honest I don't even know if the read rate is a feature of the sensor itself or the processor ?) - but as most people who (professionally) use DSLRs for video tend to avoid rolling shutter artefacts through good technique and most casual videographers don't really give a s**t, I can't see it being a priority in the near future (?).
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I can definitely see it being a priority. Simply put, the rolling shutter on DSLR cameras is a major drawback. Sure, there are ways to minimize the effects but it is still a limitation.

Just look at cameras like RED and the EX1. They both exhibit Rolling shutter issues but their read times are much better and the footage is much more useable. I think it's foolish to think people don't care. It is the prevalent issue when it comes to CMOS. Why not try to improve it?

I'd much rather have a DSLR that doesn't exhibit the rolling shutter issues over advancements like RAW video or higher resolutions like 3K.
 
Lee Wilson said:
I don't think there is any real rush to 'fix' the rolling shutter on CMOS sensors, perhaps faster processor speeds might increase the read rate (to be honest I don't even know if the read rate is a feature of the sensor itself or the processor ?) - but as most people who (professionally) use DSLRs for video tend to avoid rolling shutter artefacts through good technique and most casual videographers don't really give a s**t, I can't see it being a priority in the near future (?).
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Why would they fix it if you feel like how you do professional?
I think its unprofessional to put out CAM's like these. I hope when or if they fix it you stay with the rolling jello effect CAM professional. This is 2010 not backkkkkkkk in days but i guess money grabbing will beat out technology all the time. Shame! I will get the d3100 next week call it a day thank for your help everyone.
 
blastdvx said:
Why would they fix it if you feel like how you do professional?
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That certainly looks like a sentence, but I am not sure what it is attempting to say.


blastdvx said:
I think its unprofessional to put out CAM's like these. I hope when or if they fix it you stay with the rolling jello effect CAM professional.
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Why would you want me to "stay with the rolling jello effect CAM" ? If the rolling shutter issue is resolved that would be to everyone's advantage.

Are you older than 16 ? (Serious question).


blastdvx said:
This is 2010 not backkkkkkkk in days but i guess money grabbing will beat out technology all the time. Shame! I will get the d3100 next week call it a day thank for your help everyone.
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Best of luck.
 
handsome pete said:
I can definitely see it being a priority. Simply put, the rolling shutter on DSLR cameras is a major drawback. Sure, there are ways to minimize the effects but it is still a limitation.
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I suppose we will have to disagree here, I don't think it is a major drawback for most casual videographers (dad's filming their kids in the park), and professionals tend to know how to best shoot to avid the issue.

I agree it's a problem worth resolving (and hopefully it will be resolved sooner rather than later) - but I can't see it being a priority.

handsome pete said:
I think it's foolish to think people don't care.
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Then I must be a fool.

:thumbsup:
 
blastdvx said:
Why would they fix it if you feel like how you do professional?
I think its unprofessional to put out CAM's like these. I hope when or if they fix it you stay with the rolling jello effect CAM professional. This is 2010 not backkkkkkkk in days but i guess money grabbing will beat out technology all the time. Shame! I will get the d3100 next week call it a day thank for your help everyone.
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In all seriousness,

did we just get...what's the word..."trolled?"
 
blastdvx said:
I think its unprofessional to put out CAM's like these. I hope when or if they fix it you stay with the rolling jello effect CAM professional. This is 2010 not backkkkkkkk in days but i guess money grabbing will beat out technology all the time. Shame! I will get the d3100 next week .
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Okay, ignoring the fact that I agree that rolling shutter is a step backwards, I think we have to explore something else here:

Why do you continue to say that rolling shutter is unprofessional and that you don't like it ... yet three different times you've said you're going to buy a D3100, a camera which has WORSE rolling shutter problems than the cameras you're complaining about?

You say you think rolling shutter is unprofessional and camera companies should be embarrassed at producing cameras that have the rolling shutter effect. Yet repeatedly you've said you're going to buy the camera that has, pretty much, the worst rolling shutter performance on the market.

Explain please.
 
Ever feel like Art Linkletter?

9781587612497.jpg
 
Barry_Green said:
I already did explain it. I've seen that scene, and in my opinion it's just as likely that the fast pan on the steadicam caused the camera to lean slightly. That wasn't a tripod shot, it was a steadicam shot, and I think it's very likely that the whip pan motion caused the camera to tilt a little, which made the image lean a little.

In all the thousands and thousands of films that have been made, you'd think there'd be some evidence somewhere about "skew", if it exists. But it doesn't. The only example anyone has ever quoted is that Bourne shot -- and I think a perfectly reasonable explanation says that even in that scene, it wasn't "skew". So if film skews, why don't we see it all the time, like we see in CMOS camcorders? 'Cause film doesn't skew. The film shutter acts a lot more like a global shutter than it does a rolling shutter; most of the frame is exposed globally and the actual "rolling" bit only affects it for a very short amount of time.

But, soon enough I'll grab some film and put it to the test in a completely isolated circumstance that will leave no doubt whatsoever as to whether film skews. All I'm saying until then is -- I don't think it does. It doesn't make sense as to why it should, and in observation -- it just doesn't.
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Hey Barry,

It's a huge generalization to say that film does or doesn't skew, because of the wide variety of camera designs out there.

When you do your tests, keep in mind that the geometry of the film camera itself will have a big effects on the results. The size and placement and design (the dreaded butterfly shutter) of the shutter disk are the issue.

Arris have shutters that are centered below the gate and wipe across the frame ostensibly horizontally, while most Panavisons have shutters on the side of the gate and wipe mostly vertically. It's the latter that will exhibit more skew in panning and the former in tilting. Also, try a narrow shutter, which more approximates a "slit scan" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slit-scan_photography) and, as a corollary to what you said, will reduce the "global" component of the exposure and increase the "rolling" component.

I have worked in film visual effects for 25+ years. Trust me - while it is far less significant than on CMOS sensors, film does skew.

This is also a well-known phenomenon on still film cameras, especially older ones with horizontal focal plane shutters, and especially at high shutter speeds. This has been extensively written about even before CMOS was invented. See pictures here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter

And motion picture cameras mostly have focal plane shutters like still cameras (behind their spinning mirrors), but with a slightly more advantageous geometry.
 
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Barry_Green said:
D3100, a camera which has WORSE rolling shutter problems than the cameras you're complaining about?
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Are there any samples online showing the D3100 rolling shutter?

When I looked at Nikon's (horrible) test footage (and ran selected shots through a 3D tracker) I wasn't overwhelmed by the jello. Maybe they fixed it in post?

Has anyone tried shooting with that camera yet, or done any good tests?
 
matthew77 said:
Are there any samples online showing the D3100 rolling shutter?

When I looked at Nikon's (horrible) test footage (and ran selected shots through a 3D tracker) I wasn't overwhelmed by the jello. Maybe they fixed it in post?

Has anyone tried shooting with that camera yet, or done any good tests?
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Look at this guy's video.
 
Over the past two months of shooting with the T2i for my Bourne-esque movie, I found that if treat a DSLR like a big motion picture cam instead of a video cam, the rolling shutter artifacts are almost non-existent. We've been pulling off shots that most people on here would say would be impossible to get with these cameras (handheld, fast whips, shaky cam). I'll post a teaser soon so you guys can see that it really isn't an issue.
 
Barry

Why do you continue to say that rolling shutter is unprofessional and that you don't like it

That was an answer to LEE when he said some like professional use these CAM and unprofessionals complain about R-S.

Barry
(Yet repeatedly you've said you're going to buy the camera that has, pretty much, the worst rolling shutter performance on the market.)


The reason i said that is because the d3100 is 499 and the D5M2 2399 why pay so much $ for something that have the same problem R-S. I said that in some my post and no answer just you are unprofessional we all have to start some where.

LEE

Yes i am young but not 16 i wanted a answer before i buy a CAM thats all.

I am over that now but barry you said to get a cam that has global shutter could you point me to some? Thank you.
 
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