Rolling Shutter according to RED

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I guess that there are some situations where I could see it being used by a soccer mom. First, it would have to be a rich soccer Mom. And second, Scarlet would have to have some sort of processed image option that outputs to a 1080 standard codec for easy viewing. Or third, it would have to be a soccer Mom who is married to indie guys like us who have the camera lying around and we will do all the post.

But once you get into the RAW process, that is a whole different story. I see Scarlet as putting a real hurt on the whole 2/3" and under market, but not so much on the consumer market.
 
I think the issues relating to rolling shutter are not really comparable between cams like the EX and Red anyway.

Of course Red would make a comment on this issue, as this technology as gained an increasingly bad rep. Those suggesting folks marking these problems as simply being jealous (because what? they can't afford a prosumer ex... please!) lol are missing the point.

A somewhat relative point that may be too, but for me its about how we're evolving our camera tech, and if we're going to evolve that based on gimmicks or genuine functionality.

A full raster EX with a host of tech reliability issues and rolling shutters is not acceptable to me - a Red however with a refined rolling shutter system ridding most of the issues that result from it - is an altogether much better prospect. So too might the 2nd generation cmos prosumer/professional cams that manage to get rid of the issues. Those who try to bemoan some of the CCD drawbacks are on another planet if they think that compares equally to the issues we've seen thus far with cmos.
 
lawriejaffa said:
I think the issues relating to rolling shutter are not really comparable between cams like the EX and Red anyway.

Of course Red would make a comment on this issue, as this technology as gained an increasingly bad rep. Those suggesting folks marking these problems as simply being jealous (because what? they can't afford a prosumer ex... please!) lol are missing the point.

A somewhat relative point that may be too, but for me its about how we're evolving our camera tech, and if we're going to evolve that based on gimmicks or genuine functionality.

A full raster EX with a host of tech reliability issues and rolling shutters is not acceptable to me - a Red however with a refined rolling shutter system ridding most of the issues that result from it - is an altogether much better prospect. So too might the 2nd generation cmos prosumer/professional cams that manage to get rid of the issues. Those who try to bemoan some of the CCD drawbacks are on another planet if they think that compares equally to the issues we've seen thus far with cmos.
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The old Cmos v CCd rant. Does everybody know that Cmos chips are cheaper to produce? That is why an EX1 with full 1920 by 1080 sensors can be produced at a similar cost to a HVX with smaller 720 pixel shifting CCD. It can all be summed up in a simple equation of price equals sensor size/sharpness divided by global or rolling shutter, or something like that. I don't know the math. But I know these companies are all the same people doing the same math.
 
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Those who try to bemoan some of the CCD drawbacks are on another planet if they think that compares equally to the issues we've seen thus far with cmos.
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This horse is long dead, but your statement is not accurate. I will be doing a lot of shooting at night with (and at) headlamps. The vertical smear I see from CCD chips is something I do not want to have to deal with and would be a much worse and common problem for me than any limitations of CMOS. Shoot CCD, fine, shoot CMOS, fine, but puh-lease for all that is good, right, and honorable these kinds of statements are getting SO old. Plus there are no CCD based cameras even remotely CLOSE, not even on the same planet, for me to hit the high-def market I can with my EX1 vs XYZ-CCD camera at this price range. So CCD is not even an option for some of us even if we wanted to go that route. Just realize this, kuh-pleaze. CCD is great but it's not a universal option or even the choice for many people. That's a big DUH. But I know, CMOS is sooOOo icky. EwwWwww. Guh-rooOOoss.

CCD - gooOOoood. CMOS - baaaAAAad.
 
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lawriejaffa said:
a Red however with a refined rolling shutter system ridding most of the issues that result from it - is an altogether much better prospect.
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Spoken like someone who truly has never used a RED ONE. Well, I've had them side-by-side for two weekends... YES, the RED has the same issues. Pan the RED fast and you get skew. No, we were not comparing in the sense who is better, but we were looking at how well these cameras can cut under certain conditions.

I agree with others here, you have a VERY strange obsession against the EX1.
How productive is this.
 
Okay...

If you actually read my post you would see that im referring to the new red cmos sensors in deveopment which if they rid the kind of probs we've seen in the EX and other early cmos cameras - then that may well make the technology acceptable to me as a camera operator and director - of course it already is to others.

That is my point, and its an important point for many interested especially in more mobile cameras like the Scarlet.

I won't accept your attempts to 'frame' my opinion stevet as my being obsessed about this or that, especially since you and buck post frequently on these topics also. But you steve, have a condescending attitude and personal tone when you critique people. I suggest you explore an attitude adjustment before claiming i have any bizarre obsessions!?
 
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I expect that Sony is also working to solve the same reset problem with the CMOS sensor. Don't surprised to see both technologies improved at approximately the same time.
 
Yep agreed - i think this will be the aim of all the manufacturers including panny (i wouldnt be surprised) for integrating it into even industry technology.

However it depends on how much it can be improved! Though i think inevitably it can be resolved more or less to not show the most obvious 'flaws'.

On the plus weve seen the possibilities of cmos technology with the RED - and in prosumer with the EX, and consumer the HV20 and others. I look forward to its refinement and the possibilities that can bring.
 
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I'm enjoying CMOS technology today - with an EX1. All I can say is "what flaws"?

I'm blown away by how much better the video is out of the EX1 then the HVX (I owned an HVX for a couple of years, my comment is based on that)

I have shot enough in the last few weeks to realize rolling shutter is a non issue for me.
 
...and in prosumer with the EX...
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Last I looked the EX1 is part of the Sony Professional Broadcast line, not a prosumer model. "The PMW-EX1 XDCAM EX Camcorder is Sony's exciting new addition to our XDCAM family of professional tapeless acquisition tools".

Of course, if one didn't really like the EX1, sure, call it what you want. Keep opening up those boxes of Cracker Jacks, lawriejaffa, maybe you'll find an EX1 as the prize? :Þ
 
Its okay Buck your ego is allowed to think this - its all part of marketing, but slapping a badge on my ass saying cinealta or varicam won't make it so... to most folks i reckon, an industry cam is 2/3 chip up with an over-expensive lens...

As for RDykmans... - if you love your cam great... but the issues of rolling shutter have been shown, listed, proven, so ignore it or work around it and live on and prosper - but don't deny it exists... is it exaggerated - probably. I can imagine how that gets users defensive about it on these boards.

The cmos tech is just not there for me yet - and for many in fact... its application with Red has limited the visibility of these flaws but even their working hard on improving the useage of that tech. Its pronounced flaws in prosumer and consumer cams are of course circumstantial on how we shoot - but those circumstances are to me distasteful. Ie. flash photography, certain lights strobing, bending/distortion and such like. That CCDs can't deal with being pointed straight at a light source is well, a small drawback in comparison right?

But look, i dont want this stupid debate going on - and it wasnt even about the EX, before fanboy rage came into it - of course ive criticised the cam, but its still a great cam that i wouldnt kick out the bed for farting. So can we leave it at that? Otherwise there will be another 10 pages of Buck... (and i do love you Buck)
 
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Its okay Buck your ego is allowed to think this
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Ha! I don't think Sony consulted my ego before they made their XDCAM series! I'd actually have to have an ego to think that. Doesn't have anything to with me. Sorry 'bout that. I'm sure you'll recover though. :Þ And I bought the EX1 based on the footage I saw, not who actually made it or what they called it or where they positioned it in the market.

an industry cam is 2/3 chip up with an over-expensive lens...
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Hey, if that's what you and your ego need, a 2/3" chip and an expensive lens to produce 'pro' quality content, that's your call. More power to ya.
The cmos tech is just not there for me yet
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That's fine... not sure why you have to seek out EX1-based forums on a regular basis to tell us, over and over and over and over and over, why you like CCD and trash-talk CMOS. There's lots of CCD-based forums here, if that's what you like, check them out, you might like them. Or not. It's like you have nightmares about CMOS and as soon as you wake up you come to the EX1 forums and start dissin'. We get it, the EX1 is yucky to you. It's like every time you even think of the EX1 you throw up a little bit in your mouth.

That CCDs can't deal with being pointed straight at a light source is well, a small drawback in comparison right?
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Maybe for you. That's cool, stick with CCD. No one's asking you to change your shooting habits or telling you CCD sucks. You're actually in a great position, you shoot 2/3"+ CCD cameras with super duper flipper dipper expensive glass, the world is yours. Yet you spend your online time kicking the poor suckers who got duped with an EX1. We know the EX1 is crappy, most of us actually bought it as a crash-cam. It's great until the moment of impact. Ha!

But look, i dont want this stupid debate going on...
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You lie! You know you like it. You lawk it alawt.

(and i do love you Buck)
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I love you more.

I just wished you loved me as much as a 2/3" CCD camera. Yes, call me jealous. But I bet a 2/3" CCD can't make a good meatloaf.
 
Okay well, i think we're fairly confident of our own opinions so we'll just agree to disagree! ;)

Anyway im looking forward to seeing more footage posted - theres a uk filmmaker making a feature on 2 ex1 cams at the mo (someone of relative repute) tho i can't remember his blooming name (its all filmed in an old military bunker.)

And I love you more with cherries on top to infinite!
 
lawriejaffa said:
Okay...

I won't accept your attempts to 'frame' my opinion stevet as my being obsessed about this or that, especially since you and buck post frequently on these topics also.
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Well, I actually own the EX1 and don't hang out here to take stabs at it.
 
Yeah - and it would seem your taking a stab at me... AGAIN... You need to take things less personally, and be less personnel. These forums are for discussions about everything from technology, cameras and movies and so much more, there not for forum members to psycho-analyse and frame others as obsessive or pathetic individuals just because they happen to disagree with you.
 
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Um 'exactly' my ass! And who the hell is 'us' btw?! Again your trying to frame what im saying in this thread to be anti-ex... GROW UP, i was discussing cmos technology relative to the RED and all cameras.

'We expect the same here.'

We?! What is this... Westside Story? Are you the spokesman of the EX gang or something hehe... can you sing?!? INSANE!



I think you should try baiting fish... you might have more success!
 
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HEY! No arguing without me! TRUCE! I thought we decided all cameras pretty much suck, unless you're shooting IMAX (but not handheld).

Everyone else, you can sit on my CMOS and ROTATE! <--- keeeding
 
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