Rolling Shutter according to RED

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LuckyStudio 13

LuckyStudio 13

The Tapeless One
"The only "problem" with a rolling shutter is a long read-reset time. History will not look kind on early CMOS sensors because this time was too long. We have shortened the read-reset time considerably just in the last year. Next generation sensors (Epic, Scarlet and RED ONE upgrade) will equal that of a mechanical shutter. After that, they will be faster.

Try to wipe your mind of preconceived notions... "

"My last rolling shutter comment for the night. A rolling shutter (with correct read-reset times) is a GOOD thing... not a bad thing. It accurately emulates a mechanical shutter if the wipe times are similar. We PREFER the look to a global shutter. "

Jim Jannard from RED ONE
 
The only problem with rolling shutter is when you use strobe lights, scenes with flashes going off ( for example, go to boston globe website and look at the video of the Celtic locker room celebration). If you shoot events, you need CCD, period.

For narrative filmmaking, in a controlled environment if you get skews and wobble or what not, your problem is much more serious than global shutter in a cmos chip.
 
Dxmetal, I am the guy that posted the "Another CMOS Question" thread over on Reduser that you have quoted Jim from. I knew that a global shutter was too expensive of an option for CMOS, so I thought that it would be interesting to get some brainstorming going about ways to improve current CMOS technology that would eliminate the need for a global shutter. I kind of got the impression that Jim felt that it was an attack on CMOS, which it wasn't. But I was glad to hear his input on read-reset times, and to know that these improvements will be included in EPIC, RED, and Scarlet(which I plan to buy). I love technological advances and enjoy the challenges of problem-solving. CMOS is here to stay, so let's do what we can to make it better. My 2 cents.
 
i totally agreed with you. We have to realize that this is just the first generation of CMOS technology being implemented in pro-sumer camera range. I am excited to see RED already taking the steps to improve this technology on their $3000 scarlet all the way up to their $40k+ epic. I hope this initiative will spark and trickle down to the other manufactures as well.

There are + and - to every technologies, CMOS or CCD, an informed user should exploit the advantages and manage the weaknesses of their tools/cameras.
 
Everyone who sees our show comments about how good it looks. Not a single comment related to rolling shutter issues.

The complaints about rolling shutter artifacts is like griping about a girl who has six toes.

She has a wonderful personality. Great looks. Terrific body. Yet she's getting rejected because she has six toes.

Odd analogy? It's true. A bunch of us in high school used to go ga-ga over this girl we'd see around campus. Years later someone mentioned she had six toes. Not a single one of us guys noticed. Nor would we have cared.

Here's a camera that does a great job of capturing images of excellent quality under a wide variety of circumstances. Yet there are those who keep harping about that one issue which is a non-issue to most people who end up consuming the end product. For the vast majority of viewers, rolling shutter problems are a sixth toe.
 
Great analogy Dean! Seems to me the the rolling shutter issue is only important to those who don't own the camera and need a reason to talk themselves out of it. My only nits with the cam are the on/off switch and the dial on the back being a little too small.
 
I've noticed with some of the lower end CMOS camcorders, if you pan rapidly left and right, you get a slight warping of the image. Vertical lines become noticeably diagonal. Does the RED share this issue, or have they fixed it?
 
I have to agree with you Dean, you have a good point.

But what if the girl decided to be a foot model?

This would create an uncomfortable situation.

This is how I feel about the EX-1 in some of the environments I shoot in - low to no light with flashes going off.

The footage is amazing from this camera, but if I clutter up my footage with a lot of half exposed frames, am I doing my clients a disservice?

I have never felt like there was a situation where I would not shoot my DV cams...
 
Bassman2003 said:
This is how I feel about the EX-1 in some of the environments I shoot in - low to no light with flashes going off.

The footage is amazing from this camera, but if I clutter up my footage with a lot of half exposed frames, am I doing my clients a disservice?
Click to expand...


Does anyone have any posted examples of this rolling shutter problem? It won't be an issue for me with the shooting I primarily do, but since I just bought an EX1 and will most likely be buying a Scarlet, I'd really like to see some examples of how "awful" it really is.
 
This is a more realistic recreation of skews on a rolling shutter camera. If you do a freeze frame, I am pretty sure you can see some of the trees being skewed. Regardless, IMO, the footage is still 100% usable. Strobes and flashes are the only problem for a rolling shutter camera that will deemed your footage unusable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8n5Qp5RuoA
 
perroneFord,
It's not awful. Not at all.
My experience so far:
I have used EX1 to shoot a few family events.
There were a few shots where a flash went off.
Watching the video at full speed- it looks like a flash. Big deal.

Not one client has complained. I only hear complaints about this on dv message boards. These cameras are designed and priced for low budget, event and corporate market. For that purpose they all work fine.
(If you want to make a feature film- rent an arri.)
I loved my HVX- ( and I used to hate Sony)
but I would never go back to the HVX for low light events just to avoid a few half frame flashes. I'll give the HPX a look- but going back to P2 - I don't know.
I can get almost twice as much footage on the same size SXS card.
the +'s far outweighs the negs.
 
Although we all agree that the issue of rolling shutter rears it's head infrequently, it does pose some problems occassionally. I cannot shoot a model runway due to the flashes, or a news pressconference. Sports shot at a distance where I am panning on the long end of the lense will cause harsh skew. Jellovision can happen under certain vibration situations. Under planned scenarios, the EX1 performs beautifully, but the rolling shutter does limit it's effectiveness in run and gun situations occassionally, and thus limits my work to a degree.

But there is good news, this is the first round of CMOS sensors and those that follow should be able to make these limitations disappear. Jim Jannard has stated that increasing the read-reset times of the sensor can greatly improve these shortcomings. The faster that a frame of video is read, the less time it will have to skew during a pan, to allow partial exposures, to allows image stretching (jello). If these features can be improved upon to a great enough extent, a global shutter will become unnecessary which is fantastic news - it will keep these chips inexpensive. The fact that RED is releasing an upgraded Mysterium X sensor when Scarlett is released is indication to me that it will be their 2nd generation sensor and we will see improvements in the current state of CMOS. Will it be perfect? Probably not, but surely much improved. Please don't take this as gospel because it is not, only speculation, but certainly a logical progression. This is what I am waiting most anxiously for with the release of Scarlet - how much improvement in CMOS was made between generations, and how much more freedom it will allow us in our work. I believe rolling shutter to be the growing pains of CMOS, which will be improved upon quickly. Too bad sony will not allow us to upgrade the sensor only as Red does.
 
Go past 3:10 and you can see tons of example why Flashes/strobes (Partial Exposure) problem is the achilles heel for a rolling shutter camera.

http://www.vimeo.com/1243446


If you see skews on a CMOS camera, you are probably panning or moving too fast to have usable footage to begin with.

If you see jello effect, you probably need to dampened your camera. Intense vibrations on any camera will destroy your footage, CMOS or CCD, and no audience will be able to tolerate the footage.

HOWEVER, If you shoot events or be in an environment with lots of strobes/flashes, you want a CCD camera. You shouldnt be using a CMOS camera. The problem is grave and there is no ways around it.

Hopefully the next iteration of CMOS will solve the partial exposure problem.
 
That wedding footage (while making me want to vomit) is nevertheless fantastic in quality terms. It is clearly a strong argument for getting an EX1 (and the Letus).
Anyone who can afford to commission that sort of video can afford to rent a second camera for those crummy night shots full of flashguns - they will always look horrible anyway.

If your job is covering fashion shows or celebs getting out of limos in the dark, then obviously there are other cameras that might be better for you, but I am guessing there are plenty of shooters who don't live in LA, Paris or London who don't get those sorts of gigs very often.
 
Mysterium X is coming in the Spring of 2009. But did you guys read about the Monstro sensor upgrade coming out in 2010 on Reduser under Recon? I think I may have peed a little bit :thumbsup: I am really keeping my fingers crossed that they will allow a sensor upgrade path for the Scarlet as they are making it available for RED ONE and EPIC. Scarlet is going to be my next camera, so I really hope that might be an option for us, or else I'll just have to buy a new Scarlet. After reading Jim's posts on read-reset times, I imagine that there will be improvements on both the Mysterium X and Monstro chips in this regard and that we should see rolling shutter improvements, with higher dynamic range by Monstro. Here is to hoping.
 
Yes EX1 is remarkable in every sense. The cheapest full rasta semi/pro camera from panasonic is the hpx3000 at $48k without lens.

Just like CCD that has its limitation, an astute shooter should know their tools, exploit the advantages and hide their weaknesses. Just like the ways you can get shallow DOF without 35mm adapter by careful camera placing and manipulating some variables on the camera.

- start of rant -

On the other hand, speaking about the Scarlet, IMHO, RED can totally annihilate the current pro 2/3" ENG market by building a slightly bigger shoulder mountable camera with 4 cf card slots.

Instead they choose to go with hv20 palm sized camera that aimed towards everybody. I cant imagine the horror of these every day folks that will use their scarlet to film their kids soccer game (not enough zooms), birthdays, weddings (flash photography nightmare), skate-snowboarding (skews) ..etc.

Red is a cinema equipment company, why are they creating a camera designed for the masses dazzled me. Do any of you think the average person will love to go through the Red "RAW" workflow on their imac or macbook ? - end of rant -
 
Dxmetal said:
Instead they choose to go with hv20 palm sized camera that aimed towards everybody. I cant imagine the horror of these every day folks that will use their scarlet to film their kids soccer game (not enough zooms), birthdays, weddings (flash photography nightmare), skate-snowboarding (skews) ..etc.
Click to expand...

2 things:

1: "every day folks" is not Scarlets market. Would u pay 3 grand plus the additional 1 to 2 k it would take to just capture your son's soccergame...Not to mention the more involved workflow that would be required? Not for soccer moms. Scarlett is a prosumer camera system created with ENG/independent filmmaking in mind.

2: The MysteriumX chip with its faster read/reset times SHOULD fix cmos's skewing problem(maybe not entirely but mostly).
 
That's not what Ted said during the past NAB 2008

kyledroid said:
2 things:

1: "every day folks" is not Scarlets market. Would u pay 3 grand plus the additional 1 to 2 k it would take to just capture your son's soccergame...Not to mention the more involved workflow that would be required? Not for soccer moms. Scarlett is a prosumer camera system created with ENG/independent filmmaking in mind.
Click to expand...
 
Dxmetal said:
That's not what Ted said during the past NAB 2008
Click to expand...

Im not familiar with Ted, but if he says so...

This is just my opinion, however, but at Scarlet's pricepoint, this camera is a tad bit out of the "everyday folk's" price range. And not to mention the costs of post production software(i.e. editing). I could be wrong, though. I do think that Red is trying to make a statement with Scarlet at that pricepoint, though. The message being that Red is committed to making high quality prosumer based products at consumer like prices- if that makes any sense at all. Yes, the pricepoint makes Scarlet available to a much broader and, admittedly, consumer based market, but that doesnt mean Scarlet is meant for everyone.
 
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