AC160 Rock Band Recording at club under constantly changing light conditions

kwkeirstead

kwkeirstead

Well-known member
Check this out please

http://youtu.be/OxRwNeXOa-g

Just wondering if the recording is the result of bad camera settings or bad camerman.

This 4 min clip was done using Cine-Like D/Matrix CineLike scene - I did not mess with the standard settings.

SO, 1080 /24p and shutter OFF (1/60) ending up with a need for gain of 12 db which I later along in the program (not sure at what song) lowered this to 6db.

I suppose 1/48 might have been better?

The f/stop was around f/2.

The mic was Rode VideoMic which up to last nite has performed well but this time there are crackles across all of the songs. The band did a ZOOM recording and they have a copy of the sound board. I was in the balcony but could have probably taken a feed but last time I tried this I had a bad experience.

Every auto option was turned OFF so no wandering focus, iris, whilte balance etc.

The Y Marker readings were all over the place but mostly around 15%.

The Iris meter showed two clusters to the left.

Sound meters were below the 50% settings (very loud music) but I never saw volume much above the mid point and for sure not at the red lines. I expect I was about 30 feet from the stage.

A previous recording at this same venue was done a couple of years ago by one of the musicians from ground level with a slight upward angle. You could see the shadowy heads of the dancers and this, to me, gave a more natural recording that peering down over a balcony.

Here are my observations:

1. Musicians in the foreground have yellowish face casts but the drummer looks more natural so perhaps nothing can be done and the effect is just spotlights.

2. The musicians look fuzzy to me, yet, you can see from the equipment labels that it seems the focus was right.

I did a white balance on a white card I asked the piano player to hold up, but then for some impulsive reason re-did it on the big event display - this probably was a bad idea as it was not on stage but up on the wall to the side of the stage.

How do I improve for next time?
 
There's no way to get proper white balance right in that sort of situation. The best you can do is either white balance under a white spot light (if there is one that can be switched on by itself) or just set to an incandescent preset. Softness on skin is very common under strongly coloured lights. What happens is that one of the colour channels is overloaded and clips. Everyone just has to accept that the colours are an effect, and I doubt anyone in the band would even notice a "problem".

As for the audio, you'll probably get the best result by mixing the Zoom recording with the desk feed, but there would probably need to be some equalization done. If you have trouble doing it and feel like sending me the 2 audio feeds for one song, I'd be happy to have a go at mixing it. If you like it I'll explain what I did.

My guess is that the cracking sound is caused by overloading of the digital input circuit. There's a thread complaining of the same thing on the HPX-250 forum here. See if you can get a 9 to 12 dB pad to put in line with the mic in these situations. If it was mine, I'd modify the mic with a couple of resisters fitted inside the XLR plug.
 
I have noticed that I see on the LCD subjects focused but then not, I see the background more focused than the characters, I'm a little worried about that, next time I shoot with automatic approach to test.
Regards
 
Well, the LCD is not the best place to go to judge focus.

I put Focus Assist ON and rely on ViewFinder with black and white display. Works OK so long as there is something shiny for Focus Assist to pick up on.

I also carry around a 100 foot tape measure and start my sessions with this.

But, Chris Harding's modified Hoodman setup probably is the direction I will end up going in.
 
Hi Walter

The crackles on the audio are a concern...maybe it was SUPER loud?? I have to have my Rodes available for normal audio levels and then later they need to cope with loud DJ's at weddings!!! I currently have the Rode channels set at -50db and most definately the audio is in manual with limiters on!! I find that I need to run my Rodes for things like guest interviews with the level control at about the 2 o,clock position and then when the dancing begins I crank it right back probably to the 9 o'clock mark....I have accidentially left the gain up high and the limiters seem to do their job with no crackles or distortion even though in Vegas the audio track looks way over level. Don't use auto...these cameras do weird things with the track in auto and seem the leave the bottom half of the waveform intact but just give the top half a haircut so with loud music there is virtually no signal on the top half of the waveform.... the audio is totally different on this camera series!!! The Rodeo Videomic has an output of -38dbA yet I have to set my channel at -50db ....at -40db it's as if the mic is almost off!!!!! With my HMC80's I got nice audio set at -40db

I would definately check and make sure audio is manual and limiters are on!!!

Now, the Hoodman mod is awesome on shoulder but the overall length of the loupe and foam box isn't so great on tripod..however I'm going to see if the loupe will stay focused with a "double length" foam box which would mean it could swivel up on a tripod mounted camera and be easily available.... that would mean the foam box between the loupe and the LCD would be 4" instead of 2" .....it certainly makes focusing easy for me!!! Although the EVF is hi Resolution my old eyes still need a more magnified image and the loupe does that perfectly!!!

If you need some dimensions for the foam box that goes between the hoodman and the LCD just holler!!!!

Chris
 
Exactly how are you connecting the Rode Videomic to the AC160? Are you using some sort of mini stereo to XLR adapter?

The video does not sound super loud to me. I really have no explanation for all of that awful crackling sound. I would be more comfortable using a microphone with a proper XLR connector.

Do you not monitor your audio with a headset? They are not that expensive, and are really a most useful accessory to have with you while recording.

At f/2 your depth of field is not going to be that good at such a distance. I would definitely have used a slower shutter speed, but a smaller iris setting too. The video looks overexposed to me. Did you use DRS at all, or was it off? I like to use DRS set to 1 in a setting like this. And if I use gain I always try to limit myself to using only 3 or 6.

Did you do any post processing on this clip? If a video is slightly underexposed, that is easier to deal with in post than one that is overexposed.
 
Hmmmm good point about connections!! The Rode VideoMic comes standard with a curly cord and a standard 3.5mm plug. I rewired both my Rodes and it's very important to run 3 way cable to the XLR plug...It does mean having to rip the mic apart but it's really simple...on the circuit board simple unsolder the 3 cable connection points and throw away the curly cable and replace with a decent cable that has two conductors and a screen and solder that in place and then all you need is to close up the mic...cut the new cable to length and then solder on the 3 pin XLR plug.

Chris
 
Well, I think I will do the cable switch - don't like the idea of having to use a converter on the 3.5mm plug.

I do monitor the sound with a headset with a Sony MDR-6 - funny I did not notice the crackling during the recording.

I did not have DRS ON.

I delivered MTS on DVD and the band leader did some post processing and commented as follows:

"I took out a bit of saturation and adjusted the color on your camera shots...takes a while to render, but better than orange faces"

He added content from two other cameras he had running and he re-did the sound either from his ZOOM recorder or from a feed from the club's sound system.

The end result is at:

http://youtu.be/lDTM6TFWIng
 
Here is a list of recordings done one night at a supper club- they look much better to me than previous recordings.

Most of these run 2-3 minutes.

Comments would be appreciated


Play List – Second Wind, Calistoga Grill June 1, 2012

Set 1
00_01 When Your Gone http://youtu.be/InPxorHV5ms
00_02 Josie http://youtu.be/fkzO1zpRBYw
00_03 The Things We Do http://youtu.be/TXYiMYBSOoQ
00_04 Ramble On http://youtu.be/pA8lnuMdb2s
00_05 Go Your Own Way http://youtu.be/4-MpppVIytU
00_06 Make you a believer http://youtu.be/QTF8aSAJ4_Q
00_07 Right Or Wrong http://youtu.be/wyhg4e-IvJE
00_08 Keep me hangin on http://youtu.be/DoIw6LaUcJ4
00_09 Don’t go breakin http://youtu.be/VUl0Vfdjh4w
00_10 Maybe Im Amazed http://youtu.be/_DIIZiny4LM
00_11 Watching the Detectives http://youtu.be/cyCAHbGdr5k
00_12 Better be home soon http://youtu.be/dkSAkVdbHaE
00_13 Harden my heart http://youtu.be/xydQBH4B-y4
00_14 Taking it to the streets http://youtu.be/r0luJxSoHwc
00_15 Simply the best http://youtu.be/4gcUALy7SHY
00_16 Low spark http://youtu.be/c7HcGJkpEAc

Play List – Second Wind, Calistoga Grill June 1, 2012

Set 2

00_19 Respect http://youtu.be/KLxL7YTb2iU
00_18 Breakdown dead http://youtu.be/J_ENh-_HPmo
00_17 Hold On http://youtu.be/fiqJI9BBp0M
00_22 Boogie Oogie http://youtu.be/0YdKD3rB-rM
00_21 Abacab http://youtu.be/K-Fl_h6i2bY
00_20 Addicted to Love http://youtu.be/AR1goNNZZeA
00_23 Love is Alive http://youtu.be/etQabwJUPiU
00_24 Easy Lover http://youtu.be/8WpS3Mq0P9A
00_25 Living for the KIM http://youtu.be/qOSMh35uebs
00_26 Running on MT http://youtu.be/rC9wAcKfSiQ
00_27 Aint no Mountain http://youtu.be/GFUXdG0nSzE
00_28 I Got the Music in Me http://youtu.be/MKp838N9etA
00_29 My Life http://youtu.be/qP9NdQOSjDo
00_30 Like the way I do http://youtu.be/hkcIMAr1zvY
 
Hey Walter

You are one hardworking guy!!! You virtually recorded an entire album for them there!! The guys do Billy Joel very well!! Now a question...did the instruments go thru the PA mixer as well ..I saw some drum mics there so I'm assuming yes..if so then the real answer for audio is to take a line feed from the desk and feed you channel one so you get the band only..you can leave the Rode on channel two but drop it's level so the audience level is much lower..at some stages the audience was nearly as loud as the band!!! This unfortunately happens at supper clubs!!! If there is a desk feed then take it!!! To do bands successfully you really need a second camera so you can cut in closeups of the players...cam 1 usually sits at wide angle and then cam 2 shoots cutaways of the audience and also closeups of each player so you get variety...that way when the keyboard player does a solo you can zap the camera on him. At the end of the song go can switch to audience applause and then use the Rode channel for audio.
I thought it was a great effort!!! It's useless trying to white balance when the band has coloured lights on them ...the off colour faces and stage set the mood nicely!

Chris
 
Yes, there were several mics and they go through a sound system so I could have taken a feed from the mixer for the band. The band seems to like the results. Thanks for taking a look at the material.
 
Looks good. I agree with Chris comments, however make sure you have headphones and the mix is good, otherwise see if the board has a maxtix mix on it and adjust as needed, it will make a world of differance. 1/60 shutter is a good setting 1/48 might be ok would give you more light but 1/60 looks good. I am guessing you are shooting in the highest quality mode you have? As for white balance with changing lights of color do indoor setting and leave it, best you can get. I will at times try to white balance but I never like the look after the colored light start shifing. However I will at time use a digital calibration card black/gray/white and turn on the wave form monitor and see what I have and set my iris from there all depends on what you are shooting. Use DRS spareingly and zebras on so you can tell when you are blowing out. This is the toughest type of shooting, just keep doing what you are doing and you will get better with this camera.

You Tube IMHO is killing all the good your camera is doing in the compression to put it on youtube. Vimeo is the way to go, its only $50 a year I think. You are one busy guy from what I see looks good!
 
Thanks for the feedback - it;s extremely useful to get advice/assistance being in this community.

After reading Barry's book, I keep the wave form monitor on most of the time.

I will sign up with Vimeo and see the difference.

Currently I am cranking out mp4s using Sony Vegas Pro 11. I will shop around for a calibration card (right now I have been getting people to hold up the cardboard sheets that you get back from sending shirts to the dry cleaners). My wife won't do it - too embarrassing she says.

Not happy either helping me carry my construction lights. And, now that I have a Gliders Grey rig, I expect she will want to travel in separate cars.
 
Here is a good link to find out what the best compression will work. As for the digital card, I also shoot still work so I just have one. I also use a small white backdrop (5*7) to color balance I picked up it at BH I think it was free when we ordered a big backdrop. I also have my wife hold up the same thing, or I find anyone and tell them its fun. However my wife does most of the still shooting so we work togther allot. I am learing everytime I shoot, always trying to make my product better and better. I am just starting to do a non profit peice over the next year for a 200 year old Opera House, should be fun but I am feeling stress because I have to get the shoots the first time no retakes once I do an interview. My wife says it looks fine, but I knit pick all my work apart. Oh well. . . . .
 
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