RIP Sony a7s III

[JimGao]

If you don't mind me putting you on the spot, could describe your method of setting exposure on a typical sid-down interview with controlled lighting and nothing unusual to deal with? If you don't want to, that is fine.

Hi, sorry i missed this comment. i think we posted around the same time and i didn’t scroll back till now. But based on your later comments…

Hmm, unless they've posted footage how can you say that? Talk is cheap.

…i suppose it isn’t really worth me answering that.

Talk is the primary medium of a forum, unfortunately.

i’ll upload something some time. Maybe i’ll try out the FX3

 

[Doug Jensen]

Jim, I'd still be interested in hearing a detailed description of your process for setting exposure on an interview, even if you aren't able to post an example. Until proven otherwise, we'll assume the look is up to 60 Minutes and Frontline standards.

 

[JimGao]

Jim, I'd still be interested in hearing a detailed description of your process for setting exposure on an interview, even if you aren't able to post an example. Until proven otherwise, we'll assume the look is up to 60 Minutes and Frontline standards.

Ok, but i don’t mind sharing a screen grab or two. I just don’t have loads of sit down references i can share on my phone.

(images removed)

Here are two grabs from a camera test for docu style broll+interview. I kept the camera white balance neutral for the purpose of comparing defaults, but at the end of the day, i’d not be too upset with the WB.

Personally i don’t know how technical you’d want to get about exposure. How fancy do you need to say “put it in the middle”. I know you said it might take 200 words to explain proper exposure, but at the end of the day, when someone is saying skintone for slog3 is at approximately 50% IRE, it’s just another way of saying “a bit brighter than neutral, so it pops, but isn’t nuclear”, but that is just a general starting point, and ignores context. Both of the images above are bit darker and more moody than a standard interview, but in context it makes sense. Or at least i think it does.

 

[Doug Jensen]

but at the end of the day, when someone is saying skintone for slog3 is at approximately 50% IRE,

I'm interested in exposure for a straight-forward news magazine style interview for 60 Minutes, Dateline, Frontline, ESPN, etc.

Actually, I don't recall anyone saying skintone at 50%. But if they did, my next question would be who's skintone? Are you gonna use 50% for both Jim Gaffigan and Chris Rock? How could that work. Exposing by skintone is just guessing. There is no precision about it. If you exposed with an incident light meter, the skintone wouldn't even factor into the equation. Skintone doesn't matter. Think about it.

 

[JimGao]

I'm interested in exposure for a straight-forward news magazine style interview for 60 Minutes, Dateline, Frontline, ESPN, etc.

That is cool, but i am not. Some of them look really good, and others look fairly rushed. But i don’t shoot those, and have no interest in pretending to.

Actually, I don't recall anyone saying skintone at 50%.

That may be because I was saying it as a hypothetical.

Exposing by skintone is just guessing. There is no precision about it. If you exposed with an incident light meter, the skintone wouldn't even factor into the equation. Skintone doesn't matter. Think about it.

It is as if you are looking for problems in what i wrote, instead of mutual understanding. So, it might be better if you told us how you think it should be done, rather than all these leading questions.

Someone called it bad faith argument?

Standard exposure is “in the middle” it doesn’t get any more complicated until you start adding style, nuance, and meaning.

The human eye is a lot more discerning at “midtones”, which is why compression algorithms macro block the heck out of some shadows, and highlights can be so rolled off. That’s just the nature of an analog and organic visual system filtered through a brain that doesn’t want to deal with all the information all the time.

 

[DLD]

... Trying to guess what Sony will do next is .... well, at best, an "educated" guess... if it comes from someone with ties to Sony...

The expectation is A7RV, with 8K and a lot of pixels. And likely priced below Canon R5. The announcement ought to be made in a few weeks, with the shipments commencing some time in October, right in time for the Christmas shopping season.

 

[ahalpert]

The expectation is A7RV, with 8K and a lot of pixels. And likely priced below Canon R5. The announcement ought to be made in a few weeks, with the shipments commencing some time in October, right in time for the Christmas shopping season.

Incidentally, Lexar just announced the fastest CFExpress Type-A cards available yet, with a minimum write speed of 700 MB/s. I thought that was interesting since slower cards can record every bitrate available on cameras that use this card. But I think this new speed would be enough for all-intra 8K 120fps? I doubt the a7rV could do that, but maybe it will do 8K 60fps.

$2.50/GB though. No surprises there...

https://www.canonrumors.com/lexar-an...orlds-fastest/

 

[Doug Jensen]

It is as if you are looking for problems in what i wrote, instead of mutual understanding. So, it might be better if you told us how you think it should be done, rather than all these leading questions. Someone called it bad faith argument?

No, it is actually called the socratic method of learning, Rather than me just telling you something, I try to lead you through the steps to figure it out on your own. But your mind is closed. Rather than defending your beliefs when I ask a couple of questions, your knee jerk reaction is that I'm picking on you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
The Socratic method is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions. It is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding. The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic, explore definitions, and characterize general characteristics shared by various particular instances.

I ask you to describe your methods in detail. When I question your answer about 50% skintones, you say you were speaking hypothetically. Then you didn't answer my question did you? How can we make any progress if you're not going to put your cards on the table and defend your methods?

So, I won't be explaining my mthods because, unfortunately, you aren't interested. Fine. Your reaction is to become defensive, dismissive ("I don’t shoot those, and have no interest in pretending to."). Fine. I don't really understand how you've found a niche in the video production world that avoids ever having to shoot standard network-style interviews, CEO headshots, liveshots, etc., but apparently you have. And, as you say, you have no interest in shooting those things. Fine. So, I have nothing to say that would be of any use to you. I wish you continued success.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Incidentally, Lexar just announced the fastest CFExpress Type-A cards available yet, with a minimum write speed of 700 MB/s. I thought that was interesting since slower cards can record every bitrate available on cameras that use this card. But I think this new speed would be enough for all-intra 8K 120fps? I doubt the a7rV could do that, but maybe it will do 8K 60fps./[/URL]

The increase in read speed might be more important. Speeding up off-loading a ton of footage at the end of the day is always going to be a huge benefit.

 

[jonpais]

No, it is actually called the socratic method of learning, Rather than me just telling you something, I try to lead you through the steps to figure it out on your own. But your mind is closed. Rather than defending your beliefs when I ask a couple of questions, your knee jerk reaction is that I'm picking on you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
The Socratic method is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions. It is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding. The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic, explore definitions, and characterize general characteristics shared by various particular instances.

I ask you to describe your methods in detail. When I question your answer about 50% skintones, you say you were speaking hypothetically. Then you didn't answer my question did you? How can we make any progress if you're not going to put your cards on the table and defend your methods?

So, I won't be explaining my mthods because, unfortunately, you aren't interested. Fine. Your reaction is to become defensive, dismissive ("I don’t shoot those, and have no interest in pretending to."). Fine. I don't really understand how you've found a niche in the video production world that avoids ever having to shoot standard network-style interviews, CEO headshots, liveshots, etc., but apparently you have. And, as you say, you have no interest in shooting those things. Fine. So, I have nothing to say that would be of any use to you. I wish you continued success.

Its perceived aggressiveness and abusiveness as well as complaints that it publicly humiliates students are common criticisms of the Socratic method - which may account for its decline over the past decades in favor of what are considered to be less harsh teaching methods. In the wrong hands, especially in the case of those who have shown themselves to be extremely judgmental with a propensity for bullying, it can be counter-productive.

 

[JimGao]

No, it is actually called the socratic method of learning, Rather than me just telling you something, I try to lead you through the steps to figure it out on your own. But your mind is closed. Rather than defending your beliefs when I ask a couple of questions, your knee jerk reaction is that I'm picking on you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
The Socratic method is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions. It is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding. The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic, explore definitions, and characterize general characteristics shared by various particular instances.

I ask you to describe your methods in detail. When I question your answer about 50% skintones, you say you were speaking hypothetically. Then you didn't answer my question did you? How can we make any progress if you're not going to put your cards on the table and defend your methods?

So, I won't be explaining my mthods because, unfortunately, you aren't interested. Fine. Your reaction is to become defensive, dismissive ("I don’t shoot those, and have no interest in pretending to."). Fine. I don't really understand how you've found a niche in the video production world that avoids ever having to shoot standard network-style interviews, CEO headshots, liveshots, etc., but apparently you have. And, as you say, you have no interest in shooting those things. Fine. So, I have nothing to say that would be of any use to you. I wish you continued success.

You asked me to explain how i might shoot a sit down interview, and i obliged.

If you had a question about the 50% IRE on the skintones, I would have replied. You said you didn’t recall anyone mentioning skintone at 50% IRE.

Actually, I don't recall anyone saying skintone at 50%. But if they did, my next question would be who's skintone? Are you gonna use 50% for both Jim Gaffigan and Chris Rock? How could that work. Exposing by skintone is just guessing. There is no precision about it. If you exposed with an incident light meter, the skintone wouldn't even factor into the equation.

and you ended with…

Skintone doesn't matter. Think about it.

If that was a question, i’m sorry i missed it. It sounded a lot more like you were trying to make a point. Or, to use your own words, teach in the Socratic method.


Just because i see through your leading by questioning, doesn’t mean my mind is closed, i just mean, cut the crap and get to your point.

 

[JimGao]

I'm sure there are many articles out there about this, but can someone here who advocates using RED's "traffic lights" explain to me what exactly it is technically telling you? It always seemed to me like the training wheels of exposure aids. And sure, when you have lots of latitude you can afford to be a little sloppy. But how is it actually a good system?

Hey, missed this one, figured someone else would get it.

TBH, sounds like you got it figured out already.

The stop lights are not a great all round exposure tool. they are just a confidence tool. they work with the raw data, sow if your scopes or tools are clipping post LUT, you can reference the stop lights and see you still have some safety net. it isn’t fool proof though. But yeah, you wouldn’t likely be throwing away your light meter and just rely on the stop lights. In that case, you’d be exactly right about sloppy. But are they nice to have? Sure.

I think that is why the author in that Generational Media article/blog talked about exposing to a LUT. the FX3 to my knowledge may show zebras and waveforms/histos post LUT. Might be a reason some often jump over to the log image to check clipping and other values. Whereas with the RED’s you can just glance over at the stop lights if all you are worried about is clipping. saves some time.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Its perceived aggressiveness and abusiveness as well as complaints that it publicly humiliates students are common criticisms of the Socratic method - which may account for its decline over the past decades in favor of what are considered to be less harsh teaching methods. In the wrong hands, especially in the case of those who have shown themselves to be extremely judgmental with a propensity for bullying, it can be counter-productive.

Folks, folks, settle down and listen up. I have in my hand a sealed envelope containing a prediction Doug made a few hours ago. With no further ado, let's open the envelope and read the contents.
Drum roll, please.
It says, "jonpais will call Doug a bully".
Well, there you have it folks, another prediction has proven true, thus keeping his flawless track record intact.
Applause erupts!!

 

[JimGao]

Folks, folks, settle down and listen up. I have in my hand a sealed envelope containing a prediction Doug made a few hours ago. With no further ado, let's open the envelope and read the contents.
Drum roll, please.
It says, "jonpais will call Doug a bully".
Well, there you have it folks, another prediction has proven true, thus keeping his flawless track record intact.
Applause erupts!!

At best, he implied it. but you have to be in a position to bully, you don’t have that here.