Resolution of Panasonic GH2 vs Red Scarlet Fixed for 1080p Bluray Delivery

Here in NYC there's no way you are doing a no budget film on a RED ONE or MX... unless your film is 5 minutes long or your DP is some rich kid who just bought the RED and has no idea what he's doing..(which I have seen a LOT of) and even that can get pricey.

There's a lot of that here, too. But, I wouldn't put it the same way. There may be some "rich kids" here that purchased cameras and have no idea what to do with them, but a lot of these people were doing the same thing that you are: selling on tools, and not talent. They'd get into productions because they had the next big thing, etc, but that dies off once people start realizing they can either get better for less or better for just a bit more.
Unless you have a rich buddy who owns all of the camera and needed support gear. So I don't know who you know who is handing you the camera, all the hardware and needed support for free - but it's pricey here.

There is nothing in life that comes free aside from oxygen, and I'm wary of that as well. I paid for the contacts and connections I have. Perhaps not with dollars, but with sweat and definitely some tears just as recently as last year. What you cannot afford to pay for out of pocket, as a filmmaker with very little, you must find other ways to pony up. Whether that's working jobs for free and getting it returned later or selling blood. So I paid for it, and any other filmmaker who is passionate and serious about doing this can find themselves a mentor that can teach them the gear and may also have it.

So, I disagree with no way no budget, and I'd wager plenty of cash that I could find several people in NY that can pull favors for top notch gear because they're good people (or bad) and have the connections. This is, afterall, a team sport.
Is it no budget or is the cost of a 16mm film? That's a big gap.

Kickstarter's there for all to see. It's a few thousand more out of pocket than what the kickstarter reflects. So it's a nano-budget feature film, especially for the content.

I am not attacking the quality of the camera or trying to put you on the defense, I was just answering the OPs question that a lot of real world clients simply can not tell the difference. At least not on a blu-ray.

Not that you're attacking, it's more so mis-information. We may just deal with different people, but I know that around here people can tell the difference. Some may not be able to say WHAT it is, but they can see it. And, although the GH-2 can produce some really nice images--have one right here with me--all things on the up and up, it's going to get thrashed for image quality. It SHOULD... Scarlet and RED, Epic are all several thousands more expensive and operate on an entirely different level. It shouldn't be romanticized that they are anything more than great tools to do what one needs them to do.

I am watching the news on the epic to see if it actually has beaten the dynamic range of film as they claim, and I am watching prices. Up till now I'm just doing shorts and music videos with I guess what you would call the high end of the low end budget wise... which is why the GH13s are working so well for me. It's just so damn cheap and fast to shoot with them and it looks really spectacular without even touching anywhere near the budgets you need for RED shooting. No way we could shoot red., and even if I did, I would lose ALL my profit margin to gain a boost in quality that the client probably would not notice. YOU would notice, and I would notice, and DPs would notice, but the client already thinks they are almost in 3D when they see the GH13 footage.

Again, different clients then. Because, regardless of profits, someone's gonna swoop in at some time with an F3 and more talent (there is ALWAYS someone better for the job. ALWAYS) and they'll take a hit on their profits to establish a longterm working relationship. And, good business is always longterm. I've worked for free plenty, and are say it burned favors to shoot RED on those free jobs, just to keep the longterm relationship going. Different strokes. But, I'd definitely bet that clients and such would notice the second someone puts it in front of them the proper way.

When I go to do a film in 6 month I will be thinking differently and weighing the current options and budgets then. You're doing a film that I assume you plan to try and release in theaters? Or are you just going to blu-ray DVD? Are you doing a film out?

Everyone wants to release in theaters. It's far-fetched for no names with no stars. A very rare occurance although we've had some lucky gold strikes in the past six months. The very last thing I am worried about is what kind of release the feature is going to get because it's out of my hands. But, I know I won't be worried about how it looks on a large screen because I started with something that fits the format.

That's the advantage to Scarlet Fixed 1080P or whatever. I'm sure it'll resolve more than any current crop of DSLR, whether it'll outperform something like the F3? I dunno.

Anyway.

Shoot it up.
 
Thanks Kholi... very informative reply, and I admire your tenacity and believe me I do get the work swap freebie trade game... been deep into it for a long time I did sound, which is TOTALLY and utterly thankless and un-glorious for all the effort put it so I get what you're saying and where you're coming from. I've never been a person to be attached to any one brand or piece of equipment... I started on VHS and reel to reels as a kid, went to Canon Hi8s, then DVs the XLs, then praised god when the DVX100 came out, then had an unhappy affair with the hvx200 & 200a while I rented various other things and cried tears of pain at the bills... and oh yeah.. I'm not even a DP I'm an actor. What the hell am I doing in this place anyway? So I have a certain affection for the GHs because no one piece of equipment I have owned in history.. barring perhaps the newtek video toaster flyer when i was like 13, has ever given me a better return on investment. The GH13 has made me a substantial amount of money and I am not a money person - meaning I chase dreams, not money. Yes, I know, it's the person behind the camera not the camera, but DAMN was it finally nice to get something so amazing out of something so cheap where it actually came to producing visually what I wanted without having to worry about hiding from the repo man again. (I kid you not).

Don't ever run my credit through any of the agencies... men in black suits will come down from UFOs and confiscate me and everyone who has spoken to me.

In any case... sounds like you've got your s*^t together and I wish you god speed on your film and future endeavors.
 
>:P You should see my old posts about the HVX200 and 200A... and how much I hated them ALL.

But, those too did the job, and the GH-2 IMO is better quality than any of those offerings.

Stuck in a tight situation, by weapons of choice on this day--if I couldn't shoot RED--would be GH-2 or 5D MKII

Now is what counts.

Shoot it up!
 
Let me interject with some perspective Ladies and Gentlemen. There are speaker that cost $10, $100, $1000, $10,000 and $100,000 Plus.

The difference in quality and performance between the $10 and $100 speakers is huge! you could say 35% to 40%. The difference between a $100 and $1000 is also huge! you could say %40 to 45%. Now in terms of quality of course there is material difference between a $1000 speakers and $10,000 but in terms of audio quality the difference gets smaller and smaller. Now when you compare a pair of speakers costing $10,000 and $100,000 the sound quality difference is so very subtle and small and will not be detected by the lay ear which is 99% of the population. I was an acoustic engineer and a designed and built speakers systems for over 20 years so you understand where I'm coming from. here.

This scale of diminishing returns applies directly to Cameras. Yes of course the GH1-13-2 can not match the RED systems for build quality or technical performance but pound for pound they are punching well above there weight class and I don't believe 99% of the population will notice any difference.

Lets not miss the big picture, these modern cameras do an amazing job of capturing video and stills. Have you all forgotten all the movies filmed with S-VHS and Betacam from 1980 to 2000. One of my favorite films 28 Days was shot using DV tape on a Canon XL. 500 lines of resolution if that!

Honestly nobody gives a toss about corporate films and all this technology is wasted on suckers who can't appreciate it.
 
Let me interject with some perspective Ladies and Gentlemen. There are speaker that cost $10, $100, $1000, $10,000 and $100,000 Plus.

From my perspective your analogy would be more appropriate for projectors and the final output of a project. You are talking about a delivery medium. I think what Kholi is talking about is the capture side of the equation.

We've had this argument in the audio community for over a decade. Is it worthwhile spending $5000 and up for A/D converters if the final product is being listened to via MP3? Should I record at higher sample rates with the associated costs of storage and the need for higher processing power in editing?

For me, the argument has always been, capture the best performance/recording you can and forget about the final delivery medium. The moment your aim is focused on that, you're lost. Even if you are going to go to a lower resolution in the final product, everything is gained by having the highest fidelity available at the outset.

It's not always about the audience. I don't want to justify capturing crap footage because it will end up on someone's computer monitor. Yes, there are cost/benefit considerations, but given the choice, I'll go for quality over profit. It will be your friend for the long and sometimes destructive process that editing/mixing can be.
 
@Music and @Stone - two very accurate posts and I agree 100% with both of you on most points.

I sometimes forget that so many homes still don't even have 1080p... just look at the web - how long has the width resolution of websites been STUCK at a max of 1024? For years and years now and before that it was 'stuck' at 800 width and before that 640.. because people didn't want to lose the lowest common denominator web audience which made up the biggest percentage of the audience - even though you as an artistic creator of a work or content might have made up a 'website' that was so much better and cooler and amazing - IF and only if it was viewed on a 1920 wide screen - which nobody had, only you.. on a low end screen no one could seee it or it was an ugly mess of mis matched tables and graphcs and type.

I guess in a way the same sort of thing applies here. I am, as you are stone, an absolute quality nutcase and aficionado. I was always the one of my friends to be on the bleeding edge (more like the bleeding, gouged, raped bludgeoned, and hung edge) of technology when it came to audio / video / computer and game gagets and devices. For some odd reason though - I have thankfully never caught that bug with phones. I hate the iphone. I hate it. I have a crappy virgin mobile phone... but i digress...

I am the type of guy who you would see standing in SOUND ADVICE (a very high end over priced electronics store that went out of business cause I guess there just weren't enough nutcases like me to keep them floating) for 6 hours in their acoustically perfect projector DTS surround sound room A/Bing speakers and high end amps. Standing in every position.. closing my eyes.... going into deep audio and visual zen.

When DVD came out, I immediately tossed my laserdiscs (anyone remember those goofy things...) and I bought some insane master high end flagship sony DVD player that was $1000 and looked bigger than a god damned main frame computer.... all because it didn't have the pixelization on the decompression that most of the $200 models had -so believe me I get you on the quality side. Pixelization makes the insane of my skull itch - as well as slow dlp projection. so does sound or video aliasing. I might as well have a dentist in my brain drilling holes from the inside out.

That being said, that is why I am so astounded with the GH13, GH2 (still a bit underwhelmed with that but I'm sure it will be fixed) and af-100 and the like, because of just how incredibly amazing the picture is for the price. It's mind blowing value and EVERYONE I have shown work and clips and sketches and music videos to who are of the normal world have aksed me "wow when did you get a real hollywood movie camera!!" so I know that as far as quality is concerned for the audience... the GH13 and up can do the job. More importantly - I am very very happy and astounded all the time myself with the images I get from it and project with it. The only people who quibble about higher end then what you get past that point really goes into the law of diminishing returns realm that Music is talking about. That has been proven to me.

I have played GH13 footage at about a 55mbit max rate now on both 2K and 4k projectors here in real cinema movie houses on Christie projectors here and at Sundance... and I have just been silent and told people there are multiple cameras - the models, and let them ohh and ahhh and try to figure it out - and MANY, MANY times they WOWed at the GH13 footage and pointed it out as the 'obviously higher end camera' so I know for a fact that the audience doesn't know... most clients don't know... but a few handful of DPs did know.. and that's that. Now I'll admit.. I don't olwn a red, I just have some red footage, and it's not the best red footage, so I was stcking the deck a bit, but, that's neither here nor there. We are talking just image quality here or perceived image quality... the audience doesn't know at this point.

I have sound, which is equally if not MORE important but the bastard forgotten thankless film making art down pact as I have the highest end mics and preamps that I will ever need in this life for me or for any audience I have played my stuff for. Thank God audio is not like visual. Sometimes old tech in sound way out performs new. But I guess in that regard the same as can be said making the analogy that mics are to listeners what lenses are to viewers - but we hit the top of audio recording long ago, and we are still on the train as far as what the top of image recording will be. I don't know if one can ever hit a ceiling with image quality.. and then there are all the aesthetic choices. The eye can resolve so much data at a rate of about 60 to 70 changes per second of motion.. after that it misses stuff.... but they eye is not objective like the camera is... the camera doesn't have an opinion of the scene, it just records it... they eye is bouning around collecting detailed data from small dense chunks and then yur brain is putting the vibrations together in YOUR version of a hologram according to your life filters. This is why the same two people can differ SO much in how they think the saturation on image should be, or if they prefer the dreamy chunky slower 24p - or the hyper reality LIVE look of 60pm

Maybe true film imax (which is going bye bye.. sadly) or medium format film... is the highest end currently...but I think all film is just going bye bye, and surely sensors are going to surpass anything that film could do very very soon. Bye bye chemicals on acetate! thank you so much for your 100+ year ride!

At sundance there was this insane guy who made a movie using 8 x 10 inch FILM negatives... I didn't even know that EXISTED.... they were custom cut and made to do some of the most ridiculous time lapse photography projected I have ever seen for a total immersion experience like you would have saw in a theme park ride - say the "Amazing Adventures of Spider-Man" ride at Islands of Adventure in Orlando. Anyone ever been on that? Bar none the best and most entertaining and thrilling total immersion audio visual experience I have ever had from any sort of audio visual tech in the world! Dual 70mm film projection in 3D on 180 degree screens duplicated on a set to give you 360 degree of 3D total and absolute audio and visual insanity where your eyes can't tell where the 3D stops and the real set pieces begin WHILE you are spinning around and flying up and down on a rocket launcher type car on tracks!

If you have never been, go, that ride will knock your frikken socks off and wash them for you. It has been the current champion ride for 10+ years running now and no one has beat it - even the brand new harry Potter ride which is pretty good and has technology similar technology but evolved 10 years down the line, didn't really top it.

In any case - I am happy with the level of quality reached now that it is more than adequate to tell an amazing story with the sound and visuals that match what people expect out of hollywood. Hell... Hollywood is getting horribly lazy with these same style bland 3D animations that look like liquid plastic in motion. I hate that style.. but it's cheap to pump them out I guess. I am so sick of them already. Sure, Toy Story was neat once.... Bugs Life was pretty neat... but Cats Vs Dogs 3D VII and Yogi Bear meets Boo Boo in 3D and My Owl Took a Poop in Sarah's Yard IX in imax 3D? jeeeze...all apparently being pumped out of the same kind of rendering style engine.... vomit...

But I digress again!

The only thing I am concerned about quality wise (other than if I were doing a lot of color correction or cropping or green / blue screen work) in making a movie right now - is that 20 years from now - 1080p will look like a what a youtube 320 x 240 video does now on a 1920 x 1080p screen - horrid... a little window at native resolution and a big blurry mess at full screen.

Many film transfers from film to blu-ray have not benefited because the original mastering to HD was done so poorly and without cleaning up the original film negatives. Oh woe are some of the great 80s films that have been released to HD 1080p without a proper cleanup. So as far as projecting an image that looks like film and is not pixelated - I am pretty dag nabed happy with the GH13 right now. Of COURSE the red is absolutely technically superior - but the cost to benefit ratio has, as of this point, not yet balanced out to me in value vs increased or percieved increased image quality - but the future proofing resolution does concern me. I don't even enjoy watching 720p upconverted to 1080p.. I spot it instantly and it looks blurry to me on a 1080p screen, even though it looks pretty damn good on a 720p screen. It's the NATIVE resolution that causes the issue mostly.

Will we be on holographic 10,000 by 4000 pixel laser projected 4D holographic yper vision in a few years? Tomorrow? in 5 minutes at Walmart? Maybe we're watching a movie right now! So yeah... thats the only thing that I am concerned about.

The TV shows from the 60s 70s and 80s and 90s that were shot on film have survived and can be resampled and remastered to HD and still work on modern big screens, and sometimes absolutely be stunning in a whole new way - have you SEEN the HD remasters of Star Trek? WOW! No one has ever seen it like that.

The TV shows from the same years that were originated on studio video cameras on the other hand... are a disaster to the eyes to watch on modern HD screens.. and it's almost as if all that work was wasted and will just get worse as time marches on.

- Blackout -
 
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Tv programns here from the 70s like all creatures great and small/the onedin line /when the boat comes in had out door shots filmed with 16mm and indoor ones with the old tube cameras,when shown now the outdoor shots looks awful in comparison to the indoor ones which look amazingly clear,poor transfer i guess,back on track today i have done some tripod filming with my GH2 and the 720P looks better than the 50i on my 50" 1920x1080P tv

http://www.sound-research.co.uk/onedin_line.htm
 
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...We've had this argument in the audio community for over a decade. Is it worthwhile spending $5000 and up for A/D converters if the final product is being listened to via MP3? Should I record at higher sample rates with the associated costs of storage and the need for higher processing power in editing?
As audio engineer, there's no question in my mind - when capturing source material, bit-depth and dynamic range are far more crucial than sampling resolution. The reason is that in post-production, you may need far more latitude for mix-down than the end user will ever hear. That means recording in 24-bits @ 48khz, not 16-bits @ 96khz. Of course, mic selection is hugely important as well.

In video terms, what counts for best grading results is the same as with audio: high bit-depth and a clean, wide dynamic range. 4:2:2 color depth and deep highlight and shadow detail are far more important than 1080p. I would much rather upscale cleanly captured 720p video to 1080p than work with muddy, overcompressed 1080p "FullHD" video.
 
so the "everything subject to change" stops changing


This is my quote of the year so far for 2011 ....Love it

LOL

great Barry
 
For me, the argument has always been, capture the best performance/recording you can and forget about the final delivery medium. The moment your aim is focused on that, you're lost. Even if you are going to go to a lower resolution in the final product, everything is gained by having the highest fidelity available at the outset.

I agree but in this current phase of the digital age the end product is much closer to the capture medium. This was not the case 30, 20 or even 10 years ago regarding video images. We are now in the steep acceleration phase of technology and the advancements are weekly occurrences.

I know soon memory will not be an issue, nor will bandwidth or processing speed. In 5 years there will be a consumer camera you can by in Walmart for $200 that will poo on he RED One from a great height. As a result I don't get attached to technology anymore.
 
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