Report: Love the ND wheel but....hate

Shooter

Shooter

Veteran
First of a few reports coming from us on our experience with the AF102 on last two days big shoot.

Warning Fanboys...this one is Negative! ( The rest are glowing.. so stand by your beds)

We love the idea of the ND wheel but....why is it not an industry standard ND. .3, .6.,.9

The way it is, was very frustrating to use on our shoot. We found its meaningless and vague calibration is very difficult to calculate in any way we are familiar with as camera people. (ie 3 very experienced D.Ps and AC)

Even the way the Panny Manual describes it (Page 41) acknowledges that it is a vaguely calibrated function!

eg. "3: Cuts light intensity by up to about 1/16"

Weird terms , odd math and strange description of what an ND filter is doing.
Why 1/4, 1/16, 1/64?
How does one figure those in an f/stop calculation? ( That normally we can do easily in our heads.)

Quick Report...this camera blew our socks off. Pix and words to follow later.
 
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I really like the range they use. On external shots with fast lenses I use the 1/64 all the time. Even then I have to stop the lens down a lot if it is a really bright day. Though this chart really helps because I didn't know what 1/64 means :) But I do like the f-stops comparison in the chart. Thanks Zak.
 
Yup. I guess I'm used to Panasonic's ND wheel value, though if you were expecting .3, .6, .9 it would be quite a surprise!
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Yep. ...Why it has really come to our attention is the Af100 is a camera with true DOF capabilty. (as opposed to say a DVX / HVX) Obviously broadcast and ENG cameras dont need a lot of subtle f/stop control in regards to DOF. Production cameras and film cameras do. DOF needs to controlled subtley and with finnese ( IMHO).


Our shoot (1st with the AF102) was built around DOF controlled shots and lit , composed accordingly. Even the sets were designed for DOF purposes.

What we found that the first ND in the wheel ... "about" 2 stops is kind of an unsubtle jump, ..."about" 4 stops is both unsubtle and a big leap, ...and "about" 6 stops was unuseable.

It will force us to pull out the glass filters so no biggy really...apart from what promised to be a lovely onboard clean function.

This is a production camera and we feel it should reflect professional production standards / functioning . i e filter factors as they relate to t/f/stops


...and what is "about"... about? (we didnt have time to test and work it out but new they werent precise)
 
I don't think the ND filter wheel breaks any promises. Even in the videos from IBC Jan said the filters were 2, 4, and 6 stops. I like the selection, as a 1, 2, 3 stop filter wheel wouldn't really do much for me outdoors. I would still have to put glass in front of the lens. Because the ND filters take a jump, I can at least ballpark it internally before fine tuning the lighting or using additional filters to maintain a specific f stop.
 
I am not saying it isnt what they said it is or not. No problem there.

Coming from a film BG...we selected a stock ( base on asa and color temp type) for the purpose of what we were shooting.

Indoors stocks were different ( usually faster higher asa/color temp ) to out doors stocks (usually lower asa / color temp.)

This camera has an ISO rating and color temp function (that replicates exactly that way of working). Perfect for me and probably anyone that has shot film because its so familiar to us.

So for me ...go outside...simply drop the ISO. I am not going to stay with high ISO and drop in 6 stops of ND. Doesnt make sense to me and my colleagues.
(There are many here calling for even easier access to ISO so they can use that instead of aperture control)

So summing up. I have two issues with the ND wheel: Its a coarse adjustment because of the 2,4, 6 stop range and secondly ..it doesnt relate to a production camera. Its ENG/ live broadcast style operation.

I will use pro glass filters to accomodate for my own old fashioned style. No problem

BTW: lighting for a two stop , 4 stop or 6 stop difference is a massive amount of lighting.
 
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My only gripe about the wheel and it's not really a big deal is, why is setting "1" clear? Shouldn't it be "0" or "off". I was adjusting a shot a couple weeks ago in a dark interior and my producer glancing at the monitor, gave me a friendly BTW, your ND is on 1. Had to explain it really wasn't.
 
Fotojorno said:
My only gripe about the wheel and it's not really a big deal is, why is setting "1" clear? Shouldn't it be "0" or "off". I was adjusting a shot a couple weeks ago in a dark interior and my producer glancing at the monitor, gave me a friendly BTW, your ND is on 1. Had to explain it really wasn't.
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We dont like that either but its because of the same reason as my gripe. Panasonic designers have not produced this camera 100% as a Production camera. ( Its like 80%). I does surprise me a little because in my understanding, they "consulted" with the film industry / end users.

As I say..I can deal with it and its an observation.

My full report is only GLOWING. We loved shoting with it and have a high regard for it.
 
Can't wait to read it. Haven't had the chance to do a scripted shoot with it yet so I'm chomping at the bit to see what you do with it.
 
I always carry ND .3, .6, .9 in my runbag as well as polarizer. I also have a bag full of specialty grad filters etc, but those are not in the runbag.

So it is really easy for me to pick my f-stop on this camera. And I shoot a lot in snow so the 1/64 is great, it is often f4 at 100 asa around here that is perfect.

I like the Pany ND's, just bring a .3 for fine tuning. I am really starting to make friend with the Af100. I also just got the Voightlander 25 f.95 the #4 is great for that lens, even in the shade, for SDOF anyway.
 
A .3 nd and a way to implement that filter is a MUST HAVE. It allows fine tuning in between the 2 stop jumps in the filter wheel.
I don't Know what's unclear about 1/4 1/16th & 1/64th... do the math.

If the AF had a .3, .6 & .9 nd series in the filter wheel it would be woefully inadequate unless it also had drastically lower ISO rating in the menu,

As far as I am concerned the AF 100 LACKS an ISO setting for 100 ISO and 50 ISO.

I just finished a scripted narrative shoot in the High desert northeast of LA and 200 iso even with the ND called in didn't get me where I wanted to be on the iris. If I was shooting some places i've been in the tropics, 50 ISO would have been my highest base rating and I would still need to use 4 stops of ND sometimes to get the exposure the way I wanted it.
 
I don't Know what's unclear about 1/4 ,1/16th & 1/64th... do the math.
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I know the math once I convert it to stops eg 2, 4, 6 and then it becomes something I can realte to photographically......but in 35 years as a DP I have never seen anyone use that math on an f-stop, lux, meter reading, waveform , filter factor, or DOF table etc.... by "1/4 1/16th & 1/64th".

Then we add in the precise term "about" as in ...about 1/4, 1/16th & 1/64th.

"the new math of cinematography".

Anyway Mark... I do understand your exterior situations as well. Stacking up NDs is not a foreign concept to me.
 
guys, that's how all broadcast cameras with filter wheels work. This is NOT a new feature, it's been on 2/3 inch cameras for a very long time.
 
NewYorkLion said:
guys, that's how all broadcast cameras with filter wheels work. This is NOT a new feature, it's been on 2/3 inch cameras for a very long time.
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..but this is supposedly a "production style camera". It aint a frikkin ENG camera , broadcast camera ( managed by a tech director and control room) or a consumer camcorder.

Film cameras dont even have ND wheels and rely simply on glass filters. Worked fine for ever..still works!

These crossover camera designers sometimes get confused about what they are making. ( a computer with a lens stuck on the front, a VIDEO camera, a camcorder, a still camer that can shoot video...)

Depends on what you are used to I suppose.
 
Shooter, I get where youre coming from, luckily I guess for me my last camera was a HPX500 which I shot all kinds of things on so in that respect I got used to it. Want 3 stops precisely? Pop youre filter tray out.
 
Noel Evans said:
Shooter, I get where youre coming from, luckily I guess for me my last camera was a HPX500 which I shot all kinds of things on so in that respect I got used to it. Want 3 stops precisely? Pop youre filter tray out.
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2 days in the studio and I am alread used to it. Yep I will take my filter set next time.

Now of course...when I shoot my first exteriors...I will probably be very glad the ND wheel has such big leaps between each filter. ( I can be hard to please sometimes!)
 
Keep in mind, the AF100 is not a strictly/solely digital cinema camera. It's a combo pro video/digital cine camera. If it was strictly digital cinema, why would it have 720/60p (or, for that matter, any manner of 720p?) The filter wheel is just like on any broadcast camera, and the camera is made by the broadcast division of Panasonic. They got many things quite right, some are still stuck in the video realm. I lobbied hard to get them to include a 3/8" tripod socket in addition to the 1/4", so they did get many things right.

The filter wheel and the gain switch are as found on broadcast cameras. I know folks are complaining that they'd rather have an ISO wheel, but this isn't a DSLR, and I think they forget just how much we had to clamor to get them to even recognize ISO at all! On an HVX or HPX170, all there is is gain, in 3dB, 6dB, etc. At least on the AF100 they took the step to recognize ISO and let us change it in good steps (1/3-stop increments). Couldn't convince them to change the 2.35 frame marker to 2.39, even though I nagged 'em for it. But hey, at least we got the 2.35 marker!

So on the filter wheel -- as others have said, it's simple -- it's like having three stacked .6 filters. Stage 1 is clear. Stage 2 is a single .6 ND (or, said another way, a two-stop ND, or said a third way, it cuts the light to 1/4 of what it was, which is why the video display labels it as "ND 1/4" and "ND 1/16" etc). Stage 3 is like adding a second .6 ND to the first one -- it's not, actually, it's a single 1.2 ND, but if it helps you think about it that way, you can think of it as if there's three two-stop ND filters in there.

I know Shooter initially said he hated it and has already now said he's used to it, but seriously -- that filter wheel is probably the #1 most wonderful freeing thing about not having to use a DSLR. We mounted the AF100 on the back of the Flightline Films tracker truck's 4000mm telescope this week, and the telescope has no aperture on it, so how was I supposed to control exposure -- shutter? Surely not, that'd be awful. So there's the wonderful little filter wheel, with the ability to spin up to six stops of ND and we got great exposure in broad daylight with it.

As for the filter strengths, I keep ISO 200 and ISO 400 on the gain switch. That way, between a flick of the switch and a spin of the wheel, I can change exposure by any f-stop I want, from one f-stop (drop the ISO) to two (add the ND) to three (drop the ISO and add the first ND) to four (use second stage of ND) to five (use second stage and drop the ISO) etc...

When we were on A Verse Before Dying, Mikko wanted to mount a massive 400mm Canon lens on the AF100. We had a Canon adapter, but it wasn't one of the aperture-control models. So how were we going to control exposure in the broad daylight? Yep, the filter wheel got us totally in the ballpark, and a little ISO fiddling finished it off to where we could use that big lens even in daylight, even without aperture control.

The filter wheel is one of my favorite things about the AF100, and if the only downside is that it's named "1/4" instead of "ND .6", hey, I'll adapt. :thumbsup:
 
Well put, Barry. I just returned from a 2-day shoot and really love the camera and it's results. Like Olof, I carry a .9 ND glass and a .6 grad. Combining the .9 with filter wheel #1, #2 or #3 gives me a 3, 5 or 7 stop ND capability anytime.
 
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