RED's new Dragon sensor

maranfilms said:
Either way, it's fun to watch how everyone gets all excited and worked up over a single grab, in fact one guy said he was so excited, he pissed in his pants, if thats not a fanboy, I dk what is.
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When I saw that in the thread I closed it. It's just ridiculous.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
The only reason to say nope to that and instead opt for a another brand of product of comparable price is lack of knowledge about what is possible in post with Red files. Once you taste that, you're hooked. The problem is, many of you don't know what you're missing with your baked cameras, or don't want to make the effort to learn R3D post to any point of expertise.
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In my mind there are three tiers:

(1) 8-bit 4:2:0, with color, tones, etc., set before recording
(2) 10-bit 4:2:2, recorded as S-Log or similar, so you set color, tones, etc., in post
(3) raw, which is undebayered, usually 12-bit, so you debayer and then set color, tones, etc., in post

I get 3 is better than 1 but not how 3 is visibly better than 2.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
The only reason to say nope to that and instead opt for a another brand of product of comparable price is lack of knowledge about what is possible in post with Red files. Once you taste that, you're hooked. The problem is, many of you don't know what you're missing with your baked cameras, or don't want to make the effort to learn R3D post to any point of expertise.
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If there's anyone I know of that knows Red workflow, it's Kholi
 
Along with Kholi, there are many, including myself on this forum that have a deep understanding of the RED workflow.
 
Some of the producers I've seen at the larger agencies here in New york (Ogilvy, Publicis, Saatchi, Y&R) push the it back on the cam op or hire

'sure you can shoot on red, but you must deliver in prores'

btw - did red ever fix the weird black border thing off their hdsdi capture ?
 
combatentropy said:
In my mind there are three tiers:

(1) 8-bit 4:2:0, with color, tones, etc., set before recording
(2) 10-bit 4:2:2, recorded as S-Log or similar, so you set color, tones, etc., in post
(3) raw, which is undebayered, usually 12-bit, so you debayer and then set color, tones, etc., in post

I get 3 is better than 1 but not how 3 is visibly better than 2.
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There is also YCbCr and RGB flavours for some of these, RGB generally being higher quality than YCbCr and found on Alexa, F3 (with RGB upgrade),...


EDIT: Damn that frame grab looks amazing!! Doesn't matter if you like RED or not, you can't deny it! I want one!! :cool:
 
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combatentropy said:
In my mind there are three tiers:

(1) 8-bit 4:2:0, with color, tones, etc., set before recording
(2) 10-bit 4:2:2, recorded as S-Log or similar, so you set color, tones, etc., in post
(3) raw, which is undebayered, usually 12-bit, so you debayer and then set color, tones, etc., in post

I get 3 is better than 1 but not how 3 is visibly better than 2.
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The difference is how much control you exercise over rendering of highlight and shadow values, base white balance, base gamma curve, base color LUTs, detail, etc. in a full linear DR wide color gamut space before debayer and conversion to a compressed DR limited gamut video codec space, log or not.

You also have the advantage of potentially higher quality non-realtime debayer alogrithms in a full 32bit float conversion vs typically 14 bit or 16 bit integer algorithms compromised to achieve real time conversion speed within the limits of in camera processing power.
 
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Razz16mm said:
The difference is how much control you exercise over rendering of highlight and shadow values, base white balance, base gamma curve, base color LUTs, detail, etc. in a full linear DR wide color gamut space before debayer and conversion to a compressed DR limited gamut video codec space, log or not.

You also have the advantage of potentially higher quality non-realtime debayer alogrithms in a full 32bit float conversion vs typically 14 bit or 16 bit integer algorithms compromised to achieve real time conversion speed within the limits of in camera processing power.
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jeez David, speak English my good man!
:)
 
David hit on the REAL advantage in his second paragraph.

The D800, for example. The little processor in that camera doesn't even have the horsepower to output the camera's full resolution to live view (it has to be line-skipped and interpolated, flumoxing landscape photographers trying to use that camera for critical focus).

Nikon was stupid for giving a 36mp camera live view before they had a processor that could actually do it, but that's neither here nor there.

The point is : do you want your final debayering done real-time by that pathetic little processor that can't even do it at "preview quality" (live view) in real time? Or would you prefer to have it done by the big rig you use for editing?
 
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combatentropy said:
(2) 10-bit 4:2:2...so you set color, tones, etc., in post
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Except, not really. You have way more flexibility to alter them than with 8-bit 4:2:0, but they ARE set and the debayer IS done. Probably by a much better processor than the D800 one I used for my example above, but still not one that rivals your editing machine.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
The only reason to say nope to that and instead opt for a another brand of product of comparable price is lack of knowledge about what is possible in post with Red files. Once you taste that, you're hooked. The problem is, many of you don't know what you're missing with your baked cameras, or don't want to make the effort to learn R3D post to any point of expertise.
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I've been shooting RED since R1 number 81. I appreciate the suggestions... but, when I said nope in response to the 6K scarlet, I meant nope.

Shoot it up!
 
Anyone that wants a Scarlet, wait like 6 months and there will be plenty of them for sale and "should" costs about $3000 for the brain after Dragon starts hitting the streets.
 
dustylense said:
Anyone that wants a Scarlet, wait like 6 months and there will be plenty of them for sale and "should" costs about $3000 for the brain after Dragon starts hitting the streets.
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I doubt many owners will be selling them; I believe Red is doing a trade-in program to give Scarlet owners a discount on Epic Dragon. Red may resell many of those as "battle tested" but I doubt they'd make them quite that cheap, at least not for another year or two.
 
I don't know if I would be the typical Scarlet owner or not but that's what I plan on doing with mine (Epic Dragon upgrade). No regrets on Scarlet whatsoever.
 
Lee Saxon said:
I doubt many owners will be selling them; I believe Red is doing a trade-in program to give Scarlet owners a discount on Epic Dragon. Red may resell many of those as "battle tested" but I doubt they'd make them quite that cheap, at least not for another year or two.
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It's hard to say. Red One MX with side ssd was selling for 25,000 new until right before they released the $4k BT model. If you follow the red forums there have been comments to the tune of scarlets don't make sense at their current price given the prices of epics and the fact they cant be upgraded to dragon and that red would be better off selling epic dragons for 25k and then a much more stripped down option. If I remember correctly Jarred somewhat agreed and said they would need to figure out what to do with scarlet.

edit: there was more to it than just this but here is a post that sums up what I was saying http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...t-and-Dragon&p=1112478&viewfull=1#post1112478
 
And lots (most?) red users would be shocked just how close a well done shot can look from a 10bit 444 S-log camera, compared to a well done red raw file. Raw files are great sometimes, but overblown by fans like crazy. Not to mention Sony has more DR these days. Yet more red owners waiting on that next big thing from them... those masters of marketing.
 
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