REDCODE... a miracle?

AuditoryVisuals

AuditoryVisuals

Well-known member
So uncompressed 4k is 323 Mb/s at 24fps. And REDCODE compressed 4k is 27 Mb/s at 24fps?
http://red.com/download/redcini.jpg
Is this some new compression method? You could almost record to MiniDV.

It seems I have mistaked the 27 MB/s for 27 Mb/s and 323 MB/s for 323 Mb/s, but it's still great compression.
 
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again, i don't understand how it's possible to have Cineform 10-bit as 1:5? if i'm not wrong.. besides its ratio Cineform is 96 megabits/s.. how is it possible?
 
Please... AuditoryVisuals... don't forget the basics:

MB=mega BYTES
Mb=megaBITS
1 MB=8Mb

Redcode compresses 4k at 27 MB/s (or 216 Mb/s)... This is pretty efficient but far from being "a miracle" by today's compression standarts...
 
4K Redcode RAW at 27 MB/sec... heck, a laptop drive can almost handle that! Crazy. Now I understand why Jim thinks we'll all be able to shoot 4K now.

I wonder if you could record the uncompressed 4K to an inexpensive PC with an array of inexpensive drives, probably not.
 
Oh okay. I won't forget now. But still if you had a Mac Pro with a 2TB hard drive, you could put somewhere how many hours of 27 MB/s REDCODE compressed 4K?
 
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Remember... lightly compressing a raw b&w bayer stream (similar to what is happening with the Silicon Imaging camera) will produce a surprisingly small data rate. A data rate a 1/3 bigger than uncompressed SD is great news!

Jim Arthurs
 
So Redcode Raw will record 1.62GB data a minute yeah? So 90 minutes of footage would be about 145GB then yeah?

So if you choose to film using Redcode Raw you'd be able to fit 90 minutes of footage on a RED-DRIVE then (with 15GB left)? Is that right? - sounds impressive if it is.
 
Homersapien said:
So if you choose to film using Redcode Raw you'd be able to fit 90 minutes of footage on a RED-DRIVE then (with 15GB left)? Is that right? - sounds impressive if it is.
Click to expand...

Impressive and exciting indeed. Shoot all your source footage 4K... archive... then convert to whatever working format you want.
 
WesVasher said:
Impressive and exciting indeed. Shoot all your source footage 4K... archive... then convert to whatever working format you want.
Click to expand...

Exactly, I heard it put earlier that that way your material is future proof. When TV goes from being HD to Super HD, or whatever at 4K, anything filmed on a Red could be re-edited to suit even if you are currently only cutting DV.
 
REDCODE RAW data rate is pretty darn impressive.

Im surprised to see to see the completely uncompressed RAW data rate at 323MB/sec.

Dalsa Origins pumps out 402MB/sec but then its outputting 16bit linear vs REDS 12bit. Course RED is higher resolution too (4520x2540 vs Dalsa's 4096x2048)

However, keep in mind that once that RAW bayer pattern is reconstructed into linear RGB the data rate will explode to over 1GB/sec. So if you thinking about on-lining 4k, well, we'll need several TB of 1.5GB/sec Quad Fibre RAIDS, which would be a cool $100,000.

Course, thats the highend workflow big budget features and such. Most of us wont be working this way and we'll be happy with our 2k JPEG2000 image sequences.
 
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Is online 2K JPEG2000 likely to be a plausible workflow? The dual 2 GHz G5 on my desk plays back 1080p24 JPEG2000 QuickTime files at about 1.5 frames per second. Now, this computer isn't exactly a quad core Mac Pro, but that seems like a pretty huge gap to make up.
 
Chris Kenny said:
Is online 2K JPEG2000 likely to be a plausible workflow? The dual 2 GHz G5 on my desk plays back 1080p24 JPEG2000 QuickTime files at about 1.5 frames per second. Now, this computer isn't exactly a quad core Mac Pro, but that seems like a pretty huge gap to make up.
Click to expand...

Your Dual 2 G5 will handle a 2k JPEG2000 workflow just fine. Its not the the computer thats the problem, its your storage. You still need a fast RAID like an Xserve RAID or HUGE SYSTEMS RAID.
 
QuickTime is telling me the JPEG2000-encoded file I'm messing with is only about 31 MB/s. I'm playing back off a two disk software RAID0 setup which benchmarks at around 100 MB/s for sequential uncached reads. And the five second file is only 166 MB anyway, which means it's probably sitting entirely in RAM after the first play.

One CPU pegs at near 100%, giving me 1-2 frames per second. QuickTime's JPEG2000 decoding doesn't look like it's multithreaded. Anyway, I'm definitely CPU-limited here. And this is a 2.35:1 file. It's 1920x816. This doesn't bode well for real-time playback of 2048x1152 JPEG2000....

Maybe if I could encode at a higher data rate playback would use less CPU power? QuickTime Pro doesn't give me any data rate options when exporting as JPEG2000. I'll go see if Compressor does.

Update: No more options in Compressor. Is there some other tool I should be using?
 
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Quicktime's JPEG2000 implementation isn't very good, and it's certainly not representitive of what we're doing.

However, it's fun to play with.

Graeme
 
Hmm. With QuickTime's JPEG2000 out of the picture then, I'm not really seeing a plausible workflow for online 10-bit 4:4:4 2K in Final Cut Pro (I mean, except uncompressed, with a very expensive disk array).

I'm not asking for real time effects or anything; I gather that requires fairly serious NLE support, so RED can't do much. But it would be really great if there was some format I could transcode REDCODE RAW into that had something close to the same 27 MB/s data rate, and that I could work with in FCP and other QuickTime-based apps at 2K and play back in real-time.
 
OK, from reading over in the RED workflow thread, let me see if I understand this (which I probably don't). There are *two* variants of REDCODE? REDCODE RAW and a regular REDCODE? And the regular REDCODE (to which I assume REDCINE can transcode from REDCODE RAW, and which I gather the camera can record internally) can be played back in real-time?

Assuming that's correct, the next question is, can it be played back in QuickTime apps? That is, is there a QuickTime plug-in that implements REDCODE?
 
Yes there are two variants from what I understand.

The camera is capable of doing what REDCINE does inside the camera in realtime. So, thats means it needs to be recording to either an existing codec (jpeg2000) or a new RED codec, non raw and demosaiced. This could be linear, log, whatever, who knows.

This new codec would *probably* be available cross platform and use quicktime as its host (the same way blackmagic and AJA does with their codecs.)

RED hasn't mentioned anything about the in camera (non RAW) codec yet so its just speculation but the above is probably what will happen. We do know that RED is capable of pumping out standard formats through SDI such as 1080p, 1080i, 720, etc... when coming out SDI we know we are getting standard uncompressed formats.

So long winded answer seems to be YES, they will have another codec that will probably work in Final Cut. As for real time, Apple will have to bless the codec first.
 
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