Redcine...

filmmaker1977 said:
i'm just a writer/director (and i need for a cam because that's what i do for living and if the people are accepting i'm afraid there is my way) but not an engineer.. and i think when the things are complicated at the technology level, there is something (more important) to lose.. (sorry me tech people but that's my viewpoint)
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Agreed. I'm a writer/director/editor myself and get by with learning what I need to of the tech stuff, whilst relying on others to have a better and more in-depth understanding as their jobs dictate.

I'm not worried about Redcine being overly complex though, I'm guessing it'll be fairly easy to get the hang of.
 
I do not think Redcine will take a long time to learn, I mean it is for the moment (based on the Red web site) intend to import raw footage, make some LUT operation or color correct if you prefer, and then export it. So why should it be as complex as compositing?
As I already wrote an e-mail to the Red team, I would suggest that Redcine has a time table with a cut tool, so user would be able to cut the footage before exporting it.
I think the ulitmate Redcine could go, is by replacing the nle software. I mean for me an nle is a cutting and viewing tool, as I do not color correct in it, or use video transition, except sometime a fade, but you can create them inside any compositing package.
If you could import footage shot with the camera, make LUT operation, throw it on a table line, view it & edit it (create proxy if your HDD are not fast enough :-), and export it, all inside Redcine, it would be fantastic. Then you could reimport the footage you've work on in your compositing package or final touch software inside Redcine, recut it if necessary and make the final export to whatever distribution format you need.

Anyway the Red team is working very hard to deliver the best product and workflow possible and I fully trust them.

May the force be with them,
antoine.
 
I'm not sure what all the REDCine application is going to include, however it sounds like we're going to have some pretty serious grading power in there, with at least curves. My only request is to model the interface more towards the Discreet/Fusion/DaVinci/etc interface stylings than the Photoshop/AE/Shake interface paradigm. In short: If it's a hue shift give me a color wheel, not a slider. If I'm adjusting a Shadow/Mid/High curve... show me a curve and a graph not a numeric numbers. Pictures are so much more useful than little numeric sliders... at least to me.

Also... pleeeasseeee make the whole application accessible through a command line.

An easy to setup and manage network distributed processing system would be great too.

And finally... I hope this is just available on the RED website... how else are we going to deal with footage from a rental? Some of us aren't planning on buying and still want to be able to work with our footage once we return the camera. ;)

Oh... you're still here? Welll... while you're reading I wouldn't mind some of the features from my "Conformer" app I recommended earlier. Apparently I didn't have enough faith in you since the REDCine application is essentially what I was wanting: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=59438&highlight=Conformer
 
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tlorenzo said:
Just out of curiosity - will Redcine be Mac or Windows (or both) ?
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CAN IT MAKE CHEESE?!?!?!?

AND TELL MY MOM TO STOP CALLING ME?!?!?!?

Joking. Jim, Will REDCINE output to REDCODE and when will you guys forsee that codec being available to NLE's. Will we be buying camera and twiddling thumbs while we wait for FCP and Avid to catch up?
 
My favorite software tools are at the same time simple and complex. Simple enough to get going almost immediately without any gotchas, without having to dig deep to find and tweak the one setting that has messed everything up. But also with the ability to get deep into every adjustment if I need to once I have spent the time to test and understand the true power of the software. Simple helps to move quickly even after I have understood the complex parts; the ability to do detailed tweaks always is ready and waiting, but isn't in the way of simplicity.

As simple as possible, as complex as needed, at the same time.

I believe that is what Redcine should and will be . . . .

Verko
Red One #508
 
About the OS for Redcine, of course, the best would be all, including LINUX :-)

But as far as I know, there is no news on that for the moment.
 
It sounds to me that Red is creating a NLE instead of a codec, with all the talk that it should for example be abel to import edit lists. May I ask why? That is, why make Redcine a standalone application instead of a just plugin for the major NLSs? RedCine might have more knobs that other formats, but I don't see who that justify a whole new app.
 
andersh said:
It sounds to me that Red is creating a NLE instead of a codec, with all the talk that it should for example be abel to import edit lists. May I ask why? That is, why make Redcine a standalone application instead of a just plugin for the major NLSs? RedCine might have more knobs that other formats, but I don't see who that justify a whole new app.
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I would ask, why not? If you're in the process of developing a revolutionary piece of technology, why not go all the way?

I think it makes perfect sense; but then again, that's just me.
 
Remember that it has to be easy enough for me to use! The format is well on it way and should provide the power you need and ease of use. This is not an easy trick.

REDCINE will be included with the camera package for all reservation holders. Reservations end this month.

Jim
 
"Redcine will be included with the camera package"

Thanks Jim for that great news, that we were all expecting :-)

Hard to leave this forum, with all these exciting news... and you know exactly how to make us vibrate... tell us there is an other video on the gallery ready to download in five minutes :-)
 
andersh said:
It sounds to me that Red is creating a NLE instead of a codec, with all the talk that it should for example be able to import edit lists. May I ask why? That is, why make Redcine a standalone application instead of a just plugin for the major NLEs? RedCine might have more knobs that other formats, but I don't see who that justify a whole new app.
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Importing and conforming EDLs has to do with pipelines not editing. I don't do all my work inside of AVID so at some point I need a stand alone application to work as an emissary between the various compositing, grading, editing and 3d applications.

Yes I would love it if AVID could smartly export a reduced file for color correction automatically (I.E. two tapes, three takes: A,C and B if edited in such a way that in the timeline was A,B,A,B,C,A would only export 3 files again with a small lead-in/lead-out.) But it doesn't look like they're going to do it... so I guess I'll ask the only person I can. ;)

Working with 4k footage is going to require a fundamental shift from working Online to working Offline. Just about every single desktop application in existence is designed to work Online and has little to no support for Offline work. They also all are completely incompatible at the desktop level. Try moving a feature film in an efficient manner from AVID to Combustion to see what I mean. REDCine has the potential to provide in a single application all of the tools we need to transform an existing online work flow into an offline work flow. And without that transformation the RED isn't going to make any market penetration into the indie budgets.

My expectations and hopes for RED in order of priority would be:
1) "develop" my footage into something useful.
2) An initial basic color pass ala a best light telecine w/ curves and a histogram plus digital monitors and scopes.
3) EDL conforming.
4) Color Grading Prep/Export.
5) Internal advanced color grading. (I actually don't really want this one at all since you probably wouldn't do a good job... and would be prohibitively expensive to program trackers etc...)

If the application is completely extensible using a command line interface #3 should be possible through at least a third party application. I would also hope that Render farms can be employed to encode otherwise we're going to be sitting on our collective asses for a long long time.

Personally I know I can conform a 30 second spot or even a 4 minute short in Combustion or Shake, but I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with a 60 minute feature if I have to work online. Neither Avid nor Final cut have a robust proxy system in place. If REDCINE doesn't provide some way to assist an offline pipeline then I'm going to have to supplant that functionality with *something*
 
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Just curious why people actually *want* to and insist on working offline . . . if you could work online with real-time multi-stream effects on a modern desktop system (Pentium D/925X chipset or greater), wouldn't you want to? Why would you not want to work that way and rather pick offline/online?
 
"Just curious why people actually *want* to and insist on working offline "

i'm assuming you're looking at this from the SI camera workflow using cineforms Prospect HD ??

has more to do with current affordable worklow for 2k/4k clips.. the current most affordable solution is using cineforms Prospect HD ( with 2k pack) which works only in premiere..
IMO that "insist" offline is quite clear = persons would rather work offline, go thru EDL and other time consuming conversions then use premiere ?

perhaps when the cineform QT solution is available persons will take a look at it and FCP ...

if you had a different affordable NLE workflow in mind please tell us about it ...
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
Just curious why people actually *want* to and insist on working offline . . . if you could work online with real-time multi-stream effects on a modern desktop system (Pentium D/925X chipset or greater), wouldn't you want to? Why would you not want to work that way and rather pick offline/online?
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Yes, if everything was the same, I'd definitely want to work with online clips. But logic tells you that you're going to be able to work with smaller proxies much faster than full res footage regardless of the system you're working on. Every time I make a small adjustment to any of my footage in Final Cut, I have to render the entire thing all over again. Do I want to deal with constant rerendering in 4K, or a much quicker, managable proxy? Unless my system can play back the 4K footage at realtime framerates, with all the color correction, effects, and keyframing I need to do, then it's a hinderance to my workflow. Considering that the top-of-the-line Mac Pro I use to cut HVX footage can't even play back 1080 clips in realtime, I have a hard time believing it's going to power through stuff shot in 4K. I would absolutely love to be proven wrong, however. :)
 
Jason gets to the heart of something that has driven me nuts for a long time.

Offline and Online are completely artifical creations necessitated by the traditional lack of affordable technology at the high-end. Who uses compressed resolutions for NTSC-resolutions? The answer is - a hell of a lot less than used compressed NTSC 5 years ago.

Why would *anyone* voluntary degrade their footage to work on it?

I don't know a single person who says, "when I go to edit, I am going to take some positive steps to make my material look like crap, and only THEN am I going to make crucial creative decisions!"

If Final Cut Pro and Avid worked smoothly and easily with uncompressed 2K and 4K, and that kind of storage was commoditized at very reasonable prices, then we would not be having this discussion. The hand-wringing and wailing and gnashing of teeth when talking about 2K and 4K is because of the perceived cost and difficulty associated with the accompanying technology. No more, no less.

REDCINE won't make storage cheap, and it won't lessen the amount of technology and effort required to playback realtime high resolutions, but it is (in my eyes) a tremendous step towards affording people an opening to working with resolutions that previously were unavailable to "the masses."

Lucas Wilson
------------
Master of Widgets
Los Angeles
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
Just curious why people actually *want* to and insist on working offline . . . if you could work online with real-time multi-stream effects on a modern desktop system (Pentium D/925X chipset or greater), wouldn't you want to? Why would you not want to work that way and rather pick offline/online?
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Hey Jason, if you want to send me a 2K/4K HD reference grade monitor for free, then I'd love to try it. Heck, I'd even put up with the A.E workaround for cc'ing. But, until I can actually see the full rez of the footage i'm supposed to be finishing, with all the necessary colour correction, composition, focus etc...issues, then creatively and financially, it makes more sense, FOR ME, to finish 1080p 4:4:4 (or 2K if the costs associated drops by the time RED arrives) at home.

I don't think anyone *wants* to work the offline/online paradigm (except for some who want the support of full service, colour corretion, fx to film out professionals). Jason, if you want to step foward and show where it's financially viable, with the same amount of quality control, then you'll have a baseball stadium's worth of converts and will be feted by many here (including me).

I hope that day comes that finishing 4K at home is as commonplace as Coca Cola, or Orangina (for are Euro friends). However, finishing 4K at home, while maintaining the quality control of an online suite is a different story, IMO. Love to be shown differently, though. :beer::beer:

Nobody *wants* to drive a Geo Metro (except for weirdos), when there's a Porsche sitting in the driveway. *Pragmatism* supercedes *want* any day of the week. :beer:


RED #'s rebel with a clue
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
Just curious why people actually *want* to and insist on working offline . . . if you could work online with real-time multi-stream effects on a modern desktop system (Pentium D/925X chipset or greater)..
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me likes this guy! :beer: first at SI cam.. (btw, a great device.. my first love) and now at red forum.. if you aren't already one of the SI men i'd say you should be among the RED TEAM..

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keep it being our light! :thumbup:
 
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